EddScott

No, I'm talking about divorce costs, I'm talking about the real thing.

We had our annual gas service and apparently our boiler will probably need replacing by next summer. It is a "back boiler" and lives behind one of those ugly gas fires in the living room.

The chap said it will have to be relocated and the bill would be about £3,000.

Not good. Is this right? Do back boilers have to be moved? Is this and next years family holiday scrapped to pay for this fecking boiler?

Gordo

You're being had. Was it British Gas doing the annual check, by any chance? (They are well documented for being robbing b4strds, condemning boilers that are fine and quoting stupid prices to customers for replacements).

You should be able to get a new boiler fitted for less than half that. Assuming it needs swapping - I had this years ago with a Vaillant boiler - BG condemned it and wanted £2k to fit a new one on a different wall. They said that, as it was 13 yrs old, it was beyond its useful life. I rang Vaillant who charged me £60 to service it and told me they regularly had the same boiler running >20 years and it was fine. I took great delight in getting an apology (and full refund) from BG. Useless gets.

Oh, and don't necessarily trust Corgi registered plumbers - reference whoever you use or use one from recommendation via others - there are lots of cowboys out there claiming to be Corgi registered and I'm not sure it's that hard to Corgi register anyway (I remember a journalist doing it for very little money a few years ago and no qualifications).

good luck

Gordo

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

I second what Gordo has said - BG tried the same thing with us, except they quoted over £4000 to replace the bolier (and some other ancillary work)

My wife almost threw him out the house when that figure came back. I nearly helped when I read the "personal quote encompassing a tailored boiler solution" rubbish.

It turns out that they use a one size fits all boiler that they just set the BTU rating on depending on the number of radiators.

Lisa (wife) found the EXACT same model for a 1/3 of the price at a recommended supplier.

Snazy

Ours just got moved for about the same price.
Location (behind a fire) is apparently no longer the place of choice to fit them.
Not complaining though. For the first time in years, hot water on demand.

EddScott

It wasn't BG. It was a local company that really only do minor servicing and repairs. They don't actually do replacements so not really any benefit from telling us its on its way out.

"Back Boiler" aren't the done thing anymore so it will have to be moved. Unfortunately there is no where for it to go. Either upstairs or in the kitchen.

He said it would be expensive as it will need re-wiring and possibly building work to accomodate the boiler in its new location.

JimmyBFC

Let me guess, without reading any other replies...I bet British Gas told you that?

Let me tell you a story....not jackanory time but...lol

They told my mate the same, he then got another fella he knows who's corgi registered, and said he could still get ANY part that needed replacing on it the next day from the wholesaler.....British Gas had told him that they couldn't get parts any more so HAD to be changed.....w@nkers....they've done this with old women aswell, I once went to a CO detector job and the old woman (95) showed me a receipt....they'd talked her into spending £4k on a new boiler.....fvkin disgusting.

EDIT.

just seen it wasn't Brit Gas, shop around mate, back boilers are ok and efficient..ish if well maintained. Only flaw is you can only have certain styles of fires if you keep it.

ChrisB

My G/F has a back boiler and wants to replace the 70/80s fireplace with something new. Boiler is fine and is serviced anually.

One fireplace shop said you might need a custom built fireplace.

Another shop said no chance with a BB. They had their (independant) Corgi guy come round and he's quoted £2000ish (IIRC) to replace the BB and fit in a new condensing boiler in the airing cupboard (which is on an outside wall). I just had the thought of how the gas will get up there - must ask.

Although it's from 2007, interesting read here.

Have to laugh at this Government page

then

JimmyBFC

They noramlly if they can, fit a new boiler directly above (upstairs) to where the back boiler was/is - this way most of the pipes, flow and return are already there to just be re-piped upto the new boiler. He'll just run a new pipe with gas from the old one that used to serve the back boiler unit. Fairly straightforward.

EddScott

3 grands worth of straightforward!

It might be possible to put the boiler in the airing cupboard but it would need to be quite small. The emmersion is there though.

The chap said it may last it may not but we've got 12 months until his next visit to work out what to do.

Tried insurers and they don't want to know.

Shark Man

I noted that BAXI still openely advertise backboilers: Back Boiler Units

So if you can still buy in teh UK, there must some instances where its still Ok (legal) to fit them (could save alot of cost and mess with rerouting water and gas pipes).

to quote I'd consider £3000 as excessively costly

ScoobyDoo555

yeh, our back boiler got condemned. But with good reason - the previous owner had installed it himself......
using jubilee clips and rubber tubing!!

No wonder we were always feeling sleepy in the lounge!!

Anyhoo, BG condemned it, and my mate installed a new system (he's Corgi registered)
Got the HSE involved, as it was the worst case in long time that both BG and my mate had seen Soooo much carbon dioxide scoring

House insurance didn't want to know, and ended up spending about £2k, which comprised of a combi boiler, living flame fire and cherry surround/mantlepiece and marble slab.

Even moaned at the mortgage lender (we'd only moved in about 6 months beforehand), stating that the surveyor should have spotted it.

Annoying time, but now have cheap gas/hot water, compared to the old bills.

Advice? shop around.

DAn

bartus

You probably would be able to get rid of the emmersion heater - Combi's do Hot water as and when needed... So you'll have plenty of room.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Dad's a plumber and reckons the back boilers are illegal in England at least. However, while it is working it is fine, just keep getting it serviced. If it actually breaks down then they will condem it and need it to be moved.

Hope that helps.

5t.

JimmyBFC

If you get a combi they can remove the cylinder for a bit more space and run the flue stright into the loft then out the roof, it is an expensive layout mate I agree, one ill be doing sometime soon tbh.

JimmyBFC

Not true, Ive been to houses where instead of having a new conventional wall mounted boiler, they have been replaced with upto date backboilers, with automatic ignition etc etc.

EddScott

If its got to be done then its got to be done. Our bills are flippin huge - mine are more than my mates and they have 3 or 4 more rads then us buts all new.

Hopefully they can use the old chimney. The new water tank is directly above the airing cupboard and I've got a scalextric track and model railway up there so hopefully they wont stick a dirty great flue through the middle of me grand central

Shark Man

Personally, I like a detailed explaination of why it needs replacing and shown specifically what is wrong; i.e is it leaking, if so, where, and why its not fixable. etc.

If its costing you money to run; Then I'd say there are huge savings to be by looking at other parts of the system than just the boiler alone.

Personally I'd look at the timer (only "ON" when your in the house and awake; hot water and heat), hot water thermostat (should be at 55 degrees or less - presuming its big enough), The hot water tank - is it encased in styrofoam? Is it lagged too (if its bare copper, replace it with a modern one thats encased in insulation foam)? Use a electronic room stat, positioned properly (not in a draft). And check the system layout (fully pumped, gravity etc). If its gravity, convert it to a fully pumped system. And if any diverter valves are used, make sure they are working correctly; a faulty one or bad system layout can cause hotwater heat to be lost via gravity flow. Radiators; sufficenently sized for the rooms? If they are undersized you waste fuel running the boiler for longer periods. And finally making sure thermostatic rad valves are operating properly if you don't have any; Fit them (use liquid filled types, not cheap wax filled ones), .

Of course, if you find you need to replace all the above, then you might want to consider doing the boiler too; But I'm just demonstrating the boiler itself is only a small part of efficiency; a modern condensing boiler would guzzle the gas if its fitted to a poorly designed/old fashioned system (which is why the building regs don't allow it), especially if the timer and stats are set wrong (hot water on all day, water set at 75degrees etc).

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Really though, they shouldn't be unless it is too much like hard work to move it. Most places it isn't too big a job and the boiler will be condemned. As i said, they won't fix them anymore. Once it is broken it is a new boiler, even if you do get a modern back boiler in there.

EDIT: should be added that most of these things have been in sionce the 80's and they are very reliable although as pointed out below, perhaps not the most efficient.

5t.

from Types - Heating and Hotwater Industry Council (HHIC)

Back boilers (BBUs)
Under recent building regulations, an old back boiler in the fireplace area should be replaced by a condensing or high efficiency boiler. Back boilers are known as open flued models, which should, in most cases, no longer be sold. The only exception is when it is either too complicated or expensive to install a condensing boiler. In that case a back boiler can be fitted providing it achieves a minimum 78% SEDBUK efficiency. SEDBUK stands for Seasonal Efficiency of Domestic Boilers in the UK. Many customers faced with this, tend to opt for a new condensing combination boiler which frees up the fireplace to put in a more attractive gas fire, or simply leave it open.

EddScott

This is from 2007 but I'm not sure if its still valid.

It would be one heck of a job to move it. And to get the boiler to an outside wall is nigh on impossible - there just isn't anywhere for it to go.

Mog

That is still valid but TBH £3k ain't that bad as this figure should bring your existing system up to current building regs and Part L compliance which will prob gain you at least 20% efficiency, so why take a step backwards and fit a 20/30 year old designed boiler.

Mog

mannyo

We recently had our old boiler replaced, and the replacement is now installed in the airing cupboard upstairs where the hot water tank used to live, with a vent out through the roof. As a result, our gas bill has gone down a lot, because you no longer waste any heating a large tank and also get hot water on demand.

boomer

...but that means FIFTEEN YEARS to get a payback (assuming the average grand a year gas bill)!

And i bet that the new, all singing and dancing (and penguin hugging) condensing boiler will need quite a bit of servicing and new parts over those fifteen years (so lets make it thirty, but then you would need another new boiler )?

Shark Man makes some very valid points - with an old system, there are many ways that you can improve the "efficiency" without touching the boiler itself!

mb
Who might have no Part L qualifications, but has a twenty-five year old boiler that has never been serviced but still manages to keep his house warm

Mog

You are joking........................

gtijames

my granmother had her back boiler replaced about 18 months ago i think it cost around £2000.we all told her to have a combi but it fell on deaf ears and she got what she wanted.i know a few good local installers if you want someone to give you a price.

boomer

Nope!

Had BG in about fifteen years ago to press a green reset button (thirty quid for ten seconds work) but that is about it. I hoover out dead spiders every few years (it's a balanced flue) and, well, it works. Yup, the pump has been replaced a couple of times, and i have completely replaced all the radiators - but nope, the boiler still works fine.

Maybe not currently PC, but i reckon that what i have saved in servicing and parts must easily outweigh the cost of my inefficient burner.

mb

Shark Man

Well your right in some respects:

Our one house is on its 3rd condensing since the house was built (1990), Thats not even 18 years!

The last one didn't even manage five years! And the current one has broke twice in its first 2 years (PCB software "bug" ).

I would have put that to bad luck, but my cousin is on his 2nd condensing boiler. And his house is only 6yrs old.

Thankfully, the materials used on the lastest units are of far superior quality, so now they "should" last longer without self corroding themselves into Iron and aluminium oxide. However with that they are also far more complex; hence more to go wrong.

So yeah, a SEDBUK cat A Condesning boiler means its 10% more efficient than the cat D Worc-Bosch boiler at my mum's place, But then thats 15 years old and not had a penny spent on it. Quids in?

Dunk

iTrader: (1)

Shouldn't that read:

"i reckon that what i have saved in servicing and parts must easily outweigh the cost of my families funerals ?"

Seriously, get it checked, I lost a great friend to carbon monoxide poisioning, it's something not worth running any risk over. If you insist on playing russian roulette at least get a carbon monoxide alarm and give yourselves a chance.

D

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Not so good a deal if it kills you though. I would at least have it checked out properly to make sure it isn't leaking carbon monoxide or something like that. bit dodge that!

5t.

EddScott

YHPM