Turbo2

Maybe it's just me, but I seem to have had no end of recent bother with the reliability of household electrical appliances. In the past few months I have had 2 identical Routers fail on me, 2 identical baby monitors, 1 laptop, 1 kettle, 1 vacuum, 1 dishwasher, 1 strimmer. Most of these items were from famous brand name manufacturers and less than 1 year old so in guarantee, but you're still faced with the hassle of taking it back to the shop to get a replacement, which won't necessarily out-last the previous appliance. I'm no ECO-warrior but it can't be very sensible having to make two or three products to do the job that one should.

I am sure that such products were far more reliable 5-10 years ago. Has anyone else noticed this deterioration in product reliability or is it just my personal misfortune. I know the manufacturers would steadfastly deny it, but I can't help thinking that this apparent drop in product quality might be a reflection of manufacturing transfer from western Europe to China.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Have to agree. The wiring in a our challenge mini -oil-filled heater was terrible. We could smell something burning, so I stripped it down to discover that the insulation had melted allowing the + and - to touch! It was only a year old. Could have been very serious.

jono_pryor11

Were they the quality or budget range from the brand name manufacturer?

A lot of the cheaper stuff is really built down to a cost so is pretty poor quality irrespective of the manufacturer name. Lots of it even comes out of the same factories with different exterior mouldings for the different brands.

The other problem you could have is a slightly high voltage on the mains (above the 230+ 10%) some people are apparently having problems with this.

Turbo2

I doubt that any of these problems were voltage-related. With the possible exception of the dishwasher (which was actually made in the EU and not teleported in from the planet Zanussi like they always used to be), they all seem to be manufacturing faults. The famous names were Bosch, Zanussi, Dell, Bush, Electrolux togther with less weel-known Zoom (routers) and Tranwo (baby monitors), both of which are definitely produced in China.

IanK Spec C

The most likely reason is due to various companies taking up compliance with the RoHS directive which forces manufacturers to remove hazardous substances from Products. The removal of lead from solder makes solder joints more brittle. This could be why we're seeing more electronic goods fail early!

Regards,
Ian

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

I tend to nowadays buy higher end stuff to avoid it turning to landfill inside six months, buy cheap, buy twice.

So we bought a Miele washer and a Sebo Vaccum, future appliances will be replaced with other non cheapo stuff, its cheaper in the long run, especially when you way up the aggro of a washer conking out and the mounting washing.

We have had countless cheap dvd players, they last a matter of months, its false economy, occasionally you get lucky with a cheapo (my 25 quid pressure washer for example) or unlucky with something dearer but by and large the old you get what you pay for law applies.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

It's a possible reason in products that have complex PCB assemblies, but I very much doubt that RoHS is responsible for a major downturn in product reliability. Where I work we've not seen any problems at all that we could attribute to lead-free solder or processes.

As I'm sure you know, lead-free solder joints are actually stronger than leaded, and the Japanese were making lead-free products well before RoHS came in - so it's hardly a new or inherently inferior process.

I'd vote for it being a combination of bad luck and penny pinching by designers.

hux309

It's a known fact any item will have a limited shelf life, doesn't make money otherwise.

SWRTWannabe

I had two printers fail after about 14 months. When I bought the next one and the salesman asked nearly fell over when I asked him about the three year warranty

David Lock

When I cleared out my late father-in-law's house I found his old Hoover vacuum cleaner. Must have been 40 - 50 years old. Worked beautifully but heavy as hell, metal body and sweet sounding motor. Makes more financial sense, sadly, to make plastic ones that don't last. dl

r32

We've started buying Miele products in the hope they lasty a little longer....

MikeCardiff

iTrader: (2)

A lot of electronic goods are now designed to only last 2 to 3 years - theory being they are cheap so people throw them away and buy another.

I studied electronic engineering design, and one of things that annoyed me was as students we were taught how to design things to make them work as well as possible, be reliable etc... but in the real world electronics companies want their engineers to design down to a price.

The difference in manufacturing costs for most products would be less than a couple of pounds between using the cheapest, low life components possible and using better quality longer lasting ones, which would maybe add £10 - £20 to the retail cost after everyone has added their markups.

Some cheap products will last for years, but its hit and miss - compare that to my old Sony Trintron TV that was made in the 80's and lasted more than 20 years without a single problem.

David Lock

Throw away society - makes me spit

About 3 years ago I bought a very nicely made cordless Bosch grinder.

But now the rechargable batterys need replacing. Over 40 quid and it's cheaper to buy a complete new grinder. I can't bring myself to throw away a nice bit of kit dl

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Unfortunately a £10 difference on, say, a £50 product is exactly what people look at when deciding whether to buy your company's product or a competitor's. You can't really blame the manufacturer, especially when 99% of their potential customers would have no idea how to judge for themselves how long a product would last even if they were given full technical data on how it's built and how it works.

Sadly even spending more is no guarantee of a better made product - it may well simply be a higher margin product, or one on which more has been spent on marketing and advertising.

Ironically there's a great deal of skill involved in designing a product to last a couple of years and only then fail. Look at the Xbox 360 for a perfect example of what happens when a company tries to make something down to a price but gets it wrong - it ends up a technical and PR disaster.

I'm just glad that I design products for the industrial market, where a few quid either way isn't that big a deal and I can err on the side of quality. I'm sure most engineers would feel the same way: designing crap would make me uncomfortable, even if there is good money in it.

MikeCardiff

iTrader: (2)

Completely true, and one of the reasons I decided not to go into electrionic design as a career - didnt really sit well with me knowing that I would more than likely have to design products to be significantly worse than I knew they could be.

Perhaps if consumers werent such a bunch of pikeys and always wanted everything cheap then manufacturers could make decent products instead.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

You tight get! Most fork lift truck batteries don't last that long!

hectic

Two words seem to be omitted from todays manafacturing lingo..
QUALITY CONTROL


products nowadays ARE inferior to those of even ten years ago.

David Lock

Don't you mean git - please get your insults right

But the fork lift battery won't cost more than the fork lift itself which was my point

speedking

And its not only electrical goods. I want to buy some decent hinges. When I do a job I want it to outlast me. But I know from the quality that I've seen that within six months the doors won't fit properly, and then six months later I'll be replacing the totally inadequate hinges that are all you can buy, because Joe Public sets the top price for hinges at 20p a set.

Of course for 'professional' carphunters* that's not a problem, they don't mind coming back in 2 years to replace the cheap components and charge another £100 for the privilaege.

*painters / plumbers / insert trade of your choice here.

</rant>

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

They can do. Say you have a 5 year old Hyster worth around 3K. A new 72 volt battery will set you back around 2.5K, so not far off the value of the truck! Git your facts right.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

That's a shame; consumer products represent a relatively small proportion of the electronic equipment designed in the UK, and an even smaller proportion of the equipment actually made here.

Other markets - for example industrial control, military, telecommunications and security - tend to be much less price sensitive, but they do absolutely require equipment to work and to last. I'd bet that most people outside those industries have no idea what a 19" rack is, let alone the sort of kit that gets installed in them. I've made a pretty good career out of designing reliable communications equipment, and I'd hate to have to work on something that'll be sold to the public at £50 a unit. The penny-pinching would drive me nuts.

hectic

touche' mon ami

M444GY

iTrader: (72)

my 5 quid tesco toaster still toasts one side of the bread what more do u need lol

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

Built in obselence

Put it like this. Things back in the day were built to last.... today well...

Here is a prime example...

A Mk2 Golf Gti I owned - 19years old - still going strong. Needed a few parts -all the switches worked with a reasuring clunck. The car WAS built to last you tell buy sitting in the old girl. QUALITY

A Mk5 Golf Gti - although better in terms of performance and engineering has moved on and is full of lots of toys - half of which you probably don´t need - will it still be in one bit in 19 years time with all the switches and the toys working?.... I dont think so....no chance.

Welcome to the disposable society.

Shark Man

Being honest, I don't think the price you pay for an item is any guarantee it will be any good - even my Mum's Meile is troublesome!! Unlike my Grans 30year old one which never needed a penny spending on it.

The best kettle I've ever had is a £12 Proline (Comet's own budget brand). 3KW fast boil, cordless, filter and stainless steel element. Its also white so it doesn't get plastered with fingerprints like the stainless steel ones did. So far it has outlasted the Tefal, Breville and Kenwood kettles that all preceeded it (and broke) put together - all of which were more than double the price!

So I agree, whilst quality and endurance of appliances has gone down the pan, I don't think the retail price bears relation to if the product you buy will last: As everything is built and made to a price at the whim of global corperations maximising profits.

Take an Xbox360 for example, and a Wii. Ultimately, the 360 is a superior system - the price reflects that. The Wii is cheaper, yet it has proven to be far more robust.

And just think, if nothing ever broke, wore out or became obselete - how well would all these large companies be doing in the future? If nobody needed to replace their broken/worn out/obselete appliances, then they'd be out of business. So as far a business goes - as long as it lasts for the guarantee period, and maybe a bit longer (to keep their reputation) thats all that matters.

fatherpierre

I acquired a £30 Tefal steamer for free - I think it was Argos vouchers. Got it on 2002 and it has been used every day other than when on holiday.

So, probably used for 30 mins per day, 340 days per year for 6 years and is still steaming my veg to perfection as it did from day 1.

Great value.

Turbo2

It's me again, the OP. Samsung has got this built-in obsolescence idea down to a fine art with their vacuum cleaners. You may remember from another post that I was looking at replacing ours after nearly 15 years sterling service, because bits had started falling off it at an increasing rate. After the doomed purchase and return of an ill-designed and manufactured Electrolux one a couple of weeks ago, I decided to go back to Samsung for an updated but similar version (100 quid) of the old upright one we were replacing.

This was delivered this morning, but before unpacking and assembling it, I needed to do one last hoover of the ground floor with the old one, which it managed to do OK. Amazingly (this is no lie!), I then switched it off to put it to one side ready for the tip and the whole bottom section fell out of it, killing it off once and for all! You've got to hand it to those Koreans!

I've since assembled the new one and am very pleased with it. It doesn't stupidly blow air out of the front like nearly every other model on the market these days, it all fits together nice and tightly and it doesn't scare the kids like the horrific racket made by the Electrolux one.

Still every silver lining has a cloud: our gas boiler Printed Circuit Board expired 2 days before British Gas were due to come round to carry out their first service and start an annual maintenance contract, so I guess I'll now have to pay for the repair, the part and the annual contract! This is exactly the same fault I had with the bolier at my previous property. Each boiler was only about 5 years old. I wonder which shower of a company supplies these pieces of rubbish to the boiler industry? A PCB is hardly cutting edge technology these days, so I thought they would have mastered producing to a much longer lifespan than that.

Shark Man

Your right about boilers. You can spend nearly £1000 on one and it won't nessercerily be anymore reliable (our old Gloworm condensing boiler proved that: Tell me, is a boiler with a 4year lifespan acceptable? ). The old Stelrad Ideal (also condensing) was far superior in every way - although it still didn't last as long as a non-condensing boiler would have (so much for saving money - the fuel saving has been spent on the boilers instead ).

The replacement Worcester-Bosch - renowned for it being one of the top two manufacturers in this country for reliability is on its 3rd PCB (and its not an isoltated case). The only think I can be thankful for is it all went pop under warranty.
One does have to ask; what exactly was wrong with a mechanical thermostat, pilot light and a thermocouple? Cheap and reliable. So whats the advantage of electronic control? Not that much in the grand scheme of things.

PeteBrant

Worth pointing out that if you think you have been sold duff goods, that the Sales of Goods act states that good must be servicebale 6 years after purcahse. What this means, effectively, is that if you can prove that what you bought was inherently unable to last 6 years, then you can have a replacement.

Get in touch with the PFT and they are only to happy to help.


If I told you how much it cost to fabricate the average boiler PCB, and the total cost of components, you would probably cry.


I recentely had a negative head shower pump go on me. And a guy came in and had to replace the PCB (which was effectively a switch). As a PCB Design engineer, I have a fair idea of what they cost, and component cost. When I saw it, I put the total cost, at about £2.00.

He charged me £60 for it. Now the engineer isn't getting that, the spares company is.

PeteBrant

It costs the manufacturer a tiny amount - Can be produced in huge quantities relatviely quickly, and you can charge and absolute fortune for them as replacments because the man in the street has no idea of its true cost