alcazar

iTrader: (2)

And yes, that does include allowance for inflation...........the real figure is 76%.

Figures from Teletext this morning, publish by "UK Taxpayers Alliance".

WTF are they DOING with it all? I can't say as I've seen an improvement in roads, rail, buses, health, education, etc.

Alcazar

stilover

Free Money for Immigrants
Free money for immigrants to send home to their families
Free Houses for Immigrants
Free money for Chavs
War in Iraq
Red tape
Think tanks
Olympic games
Millenium Dome
Gordon Brown giving more & more money in Foreign aid
Investment in Road pricing schemes.

etc, etc

lozgti

We have never had it so good.Apparantly.

I have never felt so skint in all my working life and don't even get me started on the Road Tax/VED rip off next year.

Going to screw us and millions of families like us.

Never been so wound up about a government as I am at the moment

PeteBrant

Don't worry - all these taxes will dissapear under Tories, right kids?

I mean it's not as if the Tories have commited to keeping public service expenditure the same, and refuse to lower taxes in thier first term is it?......... Oh..wait...


You either want good public services, or you want low taxes. You cant have both.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Yeah but we have neither

PeteBrant

I'm not sure that's true. I think we have much, much better public services than we did 11 years ago.

I don't doubt for one second that money could better spent, or that there could be a shift around with priorities. But I don't think you will see the tax burden drop significantly (I don't beleive for one second it is what the Tax Alliance is saying - Maybe if you add up every possible tax you *could* pay, then maybe, the reality is, that you won't come close to it).

In terms of Income tax + NI, It has remained more or less the same since about '82.

OllyK

Really? Care to be specific?

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Pete: in what way do any of:

...represent 'good public services'?

PeteBrant

NHS, Education, Police, Transport - Pretty much all of them really.

Public services were absolutely raped in the 80's /90's - We had pretty much the lowest amount spent on them in Europe. We are now about average.

Of course to raise to an "average" level when you are at the bottom, you need to spend more than "average" to get there.

They are better. That much is pretty much without debate, the current Tory party recognise they are, and they recognise the money needs ot be spent to maintain them - Otherwise they would commit to tax cuts etc, which would be the easiset thing to do to win the popular vote. But they don't. Because they know from the 80/90's that you can't have both.

And of course in relative terms to the rest of Europe, we are not a high tax economy - Regardless of what those bastions of neutrality, the Tax Payers Alliance and the Daily Express/mail would have you beleive.

PeteBrant

None of it does - but then, how much of what you list is actually the case?

How much is "given away free to immigrants" as a percentage of the public purse?

And I don't know what "free money for chavs" means?

The Zohan

Benifits for immigrants
I have stood in a job center and seen people walk out with NI numbers and a pack showing what they are entitled it. I watched and heard as this was translated to those who did not understand eengleesh!
these people walked out now be eligible for employment benefit/JSA for a start. I on the other hand i did not as i had been self employed for 3 years and due to a newish law i did not qualify for JSA or show up as unemployed, paid in as PAYE 1980-2003 without a break - 23 years, paid my self employment stamp as well.

Free money for chavs
Pete you well know that the welfare state will support those who do not wish to or want to work and has done for many years - people who abuse it

I do not see better public services
Overstretched Police, new numbers being soaked up with paperwork - target driven objectives stopping real and proper Policing.
Schools - lack of discipline, exams dumbed down? stupid targets again.
Health service - same only lots of money spent on it but not spent well or wisely or with thought
Prisons overcrowded and dangerous prisoners now in low risk places to ease the problem. 10 years this has been a problem - answer was to build more prisons 10 years ago FFS!

We have a PC nanny state who feel legislation and banning the first step then sticking plasters to fix all and long with a good dose of sound bite to make you feel better.


Tories not perfect by any means, got to be better than this shower of *****

OllyK

NHS? That'll be why it's so easy to get an NHS dentist now then?
Don't get me started on the waiting list are shuffled to fiddle the figures!!

Education - removal of grants and introduction of student loans. Dumbed down GCSEs that in real terms get easier year on year.

Police - traffic and beat cops almost extinct. Massive increases in red tape and bureaucracy. over 3000 new laws introduced, many of them unessecary and no respurce to police them anyway.

Transport? Which bit, rail isn't public, most buses are privately run and the roads are in an appalling state of repair.

PeteBrant

That will be the Dentists that Thachter privatised, yes?


There is some shuffling, no doubt abou tit - But the overall result is a far more efficient service - Waiting times in A&E and for elective surgery are massively reduced.

How do you know they are dumbed down?

The general condition of schools is better, the equipment they have is much better.

I can see that for myself, My youngest goes to the same high school I did in 1987.

Of course a year on year improvemnt on results is par for the course these days.

There were 129,000 police officers in 1997. There are 140,000.

If that isnt enough, How are you going to pay for even more of them without having the tax revenue?
I think public transport is a case of making the best of a bad job. Privatising the railways and leaving the actual track public was always going to be trouble.

Of course, the french system is the best in the world, but then, they pay much more tax.


I am intereted to know where people think they are going to get all these improvments for free.

And the "red tape" argument doesn't wash anymore - Even the Tories have dumped thier "we can cut £7billion in red tape" claim.

unclebuck

Yep - Nu labour have done a brilliant job as reflected by the opinion polls.

(rose tinted mode: off)

Here's a quick reality check -

Injustice has outlived both New and Old Labour - Telegraph

"The Left must ask itself some brutal questions. What was New Labour for? Did it accomplish anything in the end apart from keeping the Tories out of office?"

stilover

Maybe in London. Elsewhere it's a different story.

warrenm2

Talk about Lefty apologist - jeez!

stilover

NHS?

Hardly any NHS Dentists left these days. I now have to pay £13/month for the privilage of seeing my now Private Dentist twice a year.

Mate wife is a nurse. She has a manager, who has a manager, who has a manager etc. All brought in by Labour. Money wasted on too many managers and red tape than going to where it's needed. Health care.

Not to mention PFI hospitals.

Education?
How does a class with 30 children in, when over half of them are foreign help our children?
Every lesson take twice as long so Asif can have everything explained to him 5 times.

Police?
Real coppers taken off the street in order to fill in forms. Tell a member of the public the time, and a 5 page report needs to be filled out.
No real traffic cops anymore. Replaced with speed camera's.

Transport?
In London it's fine. Great infact.
Elsewhere, Trains are late and over priced
Most of Britain's roads are poorly repaired due to lack of funding.

Etc etc.

PeteBrant

Just to isolate this point - Who do you blame for the demise of the NHS Dentist?
My ex is a senior sister. Ofcourse there were levels of bureaucracy intorduced. Some of it undoubtably unnecessary. However, fact remains that waiting times are massivley reduced.

Not to mention PFI hospitals.
Oh come on, lets deal with fact here, not red top fiction.


In some schools, there will be a large number of foreign children.

Is this typical of the national picture? No. Why? because the numbers simpyl don;t exist to affect every single class to that extent.

Again. 11,000 more more police officers than in 1997. How are you going to pay for more?


Trains are pretty good these days - Without being fantastic.

"Most" of Britains roads - define "most".


Is that the opposite to a righty apologist?

I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

PeteBrant

This is brilliant. The privatisation of dentistry is now the fault of Labour.

You'll be blaming them for the VAT charge on heating your home, next.

r32

Public services are a disgrace.
We are told that inflation is only 2.5% for the whole year. That'll be the fixed figures where anything that is rising gets taken out of the calculation. We are now told that criminal damage is no longer being classified in the crime figures. That the waiting list figures in hospitals are being massaged so that they dont look as bad as they should be. We have a national shortage of midwives, yet trained people cant get jobs, that NHS nursing staffing levels are at the lowest ever per patient. Thousands are dying of infections that they catch in hospitals. Millions of people are not able to receive dental treatment on the NHS, public transport is inefficient, overcrowded and ridiculously expensive. We are one of the highest taxed countrys in the world. Lets give 2000 pounds for every man woman and child to Northern Rock.
So New Labia a doing a wonderful job. And no it may not be much better under the Tories or the Lib Dems, but for now I'b be glad of 1% improvement over the muppets in charge.

Martin2005

Why is it that we cannot debate anything on here without someone blaming immigration for the problem?

This is such a non-issue when related to taxation

Then again 20% SNetters did say that they'd vote BNP at the next election, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised!

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

Dentists have largely been independant contractors to the NHS and not NHS employees. When the NHS came into being in 1947 the dentists remained self employed.

The loss of NHS dentists who don't wish to contract their services to the NHS plummeted after the government changed the terms of the contract a number of years ago.

Shaun

stilover

How is immigration & Tax not related?

Government need money to pay for immigrants. Fact. Whether that's in benefits/housing or both.

How does the Government get it's money? Tax
If the Government spend more & more money on Immigrants they need more money to pay for it. More Tax.

It has nothing at all about being racist. They are facts.

They are not the only cause for higher Tax, but they are certainly a cause.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

OK, Labour have arsed things a bit, but its down to what they have to work with, every person in this country should feel they have something to give to the greater good, they should not be hiding behind the welfare state, people need to understand that for them to take, be it benefits or them destroying a bus shelter it has to come from somewhere else, it all affects the bottom line, its the same in business, its like departments charging each other, we forget we are all part of one operating unit, a bit of responsibility to your fellow countrymen is in order, stand up and be counted !

The indigenous population need to do more, i.e. the ones that arent doing anything, if you are fit and well you shouldnt have time to watch Trisha, there should be no litter in the streets (the lazy ******* shouldnt drop it anyway) whilst able bodied people are sat with nothing to do, If I lose my job I would quite happily pitch up to do my bit until I find another.

The very rich need to pay their whack and not take it all offshore, there is something wrong when Multi Millionaires boast about paying less tax than a 20k a year PAYE worker.

The population as a whole needs to behave better, not damage stuff for the sake of it, not batter each other, not stab each other, stop robbing etc. Cretins need to stop breeding for the sake of it to get handouts. We need to re-eastablish the link between effort and reward, its gone, credit, benefits and the culture of celebrity have confused our youth, they look for ways to get stuff for nothing, a shortcut to fame through XFactor, a big lottery win or a loan of those companies that advertise on Sky when they are hanging round in the day when they should be working.

The population need to reduce the consumption of bad food, smoking and drinking to excess, this is one thing the goverment is getting better at, also do some exercise to lessen the burden on the NHS, look in any hospital its full of people who just dont look after themselves, I am trying to get better on this, its MY responsibility not the goverments, I pay taxes so there is a service if I am unlucky enough to be ill, not so I can **** myself up and have someone else sort it.

We need to stop importing problems, we let criminals in and they end up staying, Prgnant women from all over the place arrive and have their baby at the taxpayers expense, people arrive with all sorts of ailments that end up as our problem, sorry but if you dont pay in you can **** off, life is tough, we have evolved a situation to protect ourselves which has become a drop in centre for the worlds waifs and strays, sorry but it belongs to the British who pay massive tax for it, I personally dont want to pay for the rest of the worlds health, let them come up with their own systems, failing that we send aid.

Education, my brother in law doesnt feel like he can send his daughters to the local school as it is 80% non British, again, our kids should not be held back by kids that cant speak English at five.


Teenagers, running riot, laughing at the Police, killing homeowners who dare challenge their behaviour, some hard time is in order, wrath of god, back breaking, soul destroying, demeaning time, get a few through that and let them tell the rest how it is.

Schools, go to African countries and witness all the kids happy and eager to go to school because it is a privelige and they are lucky to go, a lot of ours regard it as boring and beneath them as they are waiting for that lottery win or Xfactor stardom, in the meantime they just want to play on the Xbox, go on Myspace/Facebook and ****, so we need to make school an privelige again, thats a tough one but we need to concentrate on what matters, No kids should leave school not being able to read and write, there is something badly wrong when that happens.

The way I see it is, the goverment runs out of money, they turn up the heat on the working population to pay for the genuine, the sick, the disabled and the unlucky plus all the hangers on then they turn it up a bit more to pay for their war and all the immigration and guess what the wick is fully out, the population are at breaking point, everything that can be taken has been taken, there is nothing more to give, a look at the recent elections shows that the country has voted, the bottom line I mentioned earlier is in full effect, but is it just us punishing a bad goverment or having a go back at ourselves as well ?

Martin2005

Yes of course but have you ever stopped for a second and thought how much money is involved, and how much Tax revenue immigrants pump into the exchequer.

I accept and understand that for most this isn't about racism, but it is about scapegoating and lazy thinking!!

PeteBrant

Quite alot of untruths in what you wrote, but just to isolate this one. We aren't even close to being the highest taxed in Europe, let alone the world - Where on earth did you get this one from?

Sweden, Denmark, Belguim, France, Austria, Norway, Italy, Holland, Czech republic, Hungary & poland pay more than the UK per capita as a percentage of GDP for starters.

PeteBrant

Just to highlight this issue.

Immigration ebenfits the country in terms of tax revenue by £6 billion.

That is they bring in £6 billion more than they cost.


Sort of completely destroys your argument doesn't it?

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Why does this remind me of the argument I had with the bloke I worked with who beleived that the Earth was created in 7 days, 2000-ish years ago and the first 2 people lived in a garden ?

Some immigration is good, I dont think what we have at the moment is quite as rosy as the government figures suggest.

stilover

No

The Government can massage figure all they want. They tell us crime is down, then we learn certain crime are now not classed as crimes. They tell us waiting time are down at GP's and Hospitals. That's because you can only see a doctor on the day you phone up. If you're lucky.

This is also the same Government who gave out National Insurance numbers to illegal immigrants then proceeded to hire them in the security industry. Yet promise to come down hard on companies that do exactly the same thing.

I assume those WMD in Iraq will turn up any day now.

New Labour = Spin.

I don't believe anything they say.