Mitchy260

Just a quick question...

Engineer 1 receives a salary of £40k
Engineer 2 receives a salary of £42k

There are no pay scales or banding structures just the basic salary elements above that are increased with inflation each year.

Engineer 1 has 1 year experience in this role
Engineer 2 has 7 years experience in this role

Both do the exact same job and look after the exact same equipment.

Now i agree that engineer 2 should morally get more £££ than engineer 1 based on his experience but because there are no increments or banding structures engineer 2 will always be paid more than engineer 1.

Can an employer do this ref equal pay laws etc? If engineer 1 was female and engineer 2 was male i cant help but think sexual discrimination would come into play.

I think both should be getting the same salary because both are employed to do the same job. I'm only saying this because there are no increments/banding structures to progress through which would of course normally be indicitive of experience.

Any advice?

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

I take it you are engineer 1 then

Suresh

Only 2k extra for 6 years more experience. That´s cheap.
The arrangement sounds more than reasonable to me.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Disagree entirely

At my company we have half a dozen production engineers doing the same job, all are regarded as at the same level in the company infrastructure. They get different wages though. Some are harder working, make less mistakes, others take less sick leave, some will do overtime at a moments notice.

All reflected in their pay, we don't do bonuses, they know their wage rise is reflective of their past years performance. Also there is a rule that nobody discusses their wages - they know that if it were found out that wages were talked about then everyone will be paid the same, the mean of their total wages. Nobody talks about their wages!

This seems to work in our small company, a family run business.

pslewis

A word of warning about 'experience' ........ I have a member of staff who proudly says to me that he has 'got 40 years experience'.

I have to remind him, again and again, that what he actually has is '5 years experience, 8 times!!'

Experience is knowledge gained through pushing yourself constantly - not sitting in the comfort zone and never stretching yourself.

Therefore I take 'years of service' with a pinch of salt - what I want to see is true Experience!

michaelro

If they've been there 6 years longer, they've had more inflation pay rises than engineer 1.
Surely what you're proposing is that engineer 1 should have an above inflation pay rise just so they can be on the same salary??

If I was getting paid £2k less than someone with 6 years more experience, I would think myself lucky and keep quiet.

Ask yourself this:

Who are they more likely to get rid of if they need to?

The engineer who gets on with it, or the one with less experience who whinges about pay.

michaelro

Don't you always go on about your years of engineering experience...?

stilover

If I was the Boss, I'd fire you both. It should always be a sackable offence to divulge your salary to fellow employees. Both do the same job, yet one gets paid more. Lower payed worker is going to be p1ssed off when he finds out. Can cause frictions within the company.

Engineer 1 should be happier. Only been there 1 year, yet nearly on the same wage as someone who's been there for 6 years.

pslewis

Yes, but I also step outside of the comfort zone and learn something new every single day ....... your point being?

EddScott

I think Pete has a point. You could have engineer 1 with less experience but with a drive for improvement or you could have engineer 2 whose been doing the job for years but never progressed past left handed screwdriver jokes.

I'd put all staff on 12 months contracts - that should keep them on their toes.

I also like the salary idea. Anyone mentions their salary they are sacked.

Mitchy260

I never knew talking about your salary in the workplace was a sackable offence. Those in pay structures and bands will know fine well how much their colleagues earn as it will be detailed in the company pay table.

My argument is, there is no pay banding structure. Its 2 guys, 2 identical jobs, 1 getting paid more than the other.

Im sure there is some kind of employment law for the above as if i wore a skirt and had a pair of **** i could surely claim sexual discrimination?

I dont disagree that experience should yield a higher salary, of course it should but in a detailed pay banding structure.

Yes £2k isn't a lot more, but as far as i can see there is no reward for experience as such.

I had to have 5yrs past engineering experience in another field to qualify for this position hence why i only have 1 yr of experience in this particular field of engineering.

Simon C

Same thing in my office.

I know eng 2 earns a couple of k more than me, and I'm happy with it as he has 6 years experiance more than me.

michaelro

Spouting out the same old rubbish on a daily basis, it doesn't seem like it...

Suresh

Then engineer 2 was better at negotiating, surely

A few years back I negotiated that a 25% 'market value adjustment' salary payment I was receiving be converted into permanent salary. A year after I did that such MVA payments were scrapped and converted to permanent salary increases at 10 cents on the dollar. To say the least I got an excellent deal Others were less fortunate. Life is like that sometimes!

michaelro

I would think you'd only be able to do that if you both started at the same time with the same skills and experience.

sti-04!!

You'd be up in front of a tribunal with that attitude.

speedking

That makes me so cross

You give someone 5% which he thinks is because he's been going the extra mile, but everyone else got 10% because really he's ****! Or someone is pi**ed to get 3%, but in fact all his colleagues only got 1% and he's actually done rather well.

Unless you publish some sort of benchmark figures this concealed reward system doesn't work.

The first thing we all do is to discuss what % payrise and bonus we got. If you can justify the differences that you award then you have nothing to hide.

Why do you differentiate? Why not just pay everyone the same? It's because they do have different values and you should be pleased to reward that and show the lower achievers how they would be better off putting in extra effort.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

At the individuals private wage review believe me they know if they are doing well or not.

They get feedback on their performance by their superiors, funnily enough at their personal performance / wage review. Not via a shop steward with an exit poll spreadsheet

It does work.

speedking

But without direct comparison, they don't know whether their reward reflects what they have been told in private. Or indeed whether all the extra effort was worth it.

Would you publish a mean % payrise figure? If not, why not?

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Yes they are aware of the the mean %

Paul3446

Quote: PSLewis
"Yes, but I also step outside of the comfort zone and learn something new every single day ....... your point being? "


If there was ever anyone who didn't learn anything new every day, it is you.

You just sit in front of your PC and spout the same old sh*te that wasn't funny the first time you said it.

lordretsudo

In my previous job, there was exactly the same situation - a group of us in the lab's on shifts, all doing the same job. The 'older hands' got quite a few thousand pounds more pay than the younger ones. I always thought it was reasonably fair, despite being one of those on a lesser salary, given the older lads' experience. You were not supposed to discuss salaries, but everyone knew pretty much what everyone else was on...

However, my current job is in a unionised workforce, so all operators and lab analysts get exactly the same salary. This seemed really weird to me at first, but obviously I have done very well out of it, being one of the younger employees. The management don't like it, and would like to be able to 'incentivise' people so as to get more out of some, and punish others, but the union's not having any of it!

DYK

think your actually getting a good deal,weather you come out the comfort zone or not.In any job or profession there are those who will just sit back and be happy with what they got,and there are those who want to push that little bit more.But as a starting foundation your on a good deal.7yrs matches 1,2k less.Its a good start and think you should progress from that.

PaulC72

what would you do if you found out that you were earning 2k more than eng 2? would you argue that he is not getting paid enough for what he does or say tough sh..

I would say that if the jobs are exactly the same with the same responsibilities and their is no chain of command i.e eng 1 reports to eng 2 if problem situations etc then regardless of experiane both should get the same wage, i mean if you worked at Asda for 7 years and someone new joined wouldn't they get the same?

The problem is like you say no pay scales so no guide, what you need to do is ask the question...

What do i need to be able to do to be earning the same money as eng 2, get a definitive answer then you will know what you need to do, they may say be doing the job for 3 years and doing it well {no doubt you do already}

I have a similar problem but I doubt I am the lowest paid out of people doing the same position in my role, just the title is wrong

pslewis

And congratulations for contributing to this thread If Brains were dynamite you wouldn't have enough to blow up an ant Ijiot!

Richard_P

There is no employment law that states you're entitled to the same as someone doing the same job.

5% less for 6 years less experience doesn't sound like much different. There can be differences of 30% where I work!

Mitchy260

Like i said before what if engineer 1 was a woman and engineer 2 was a man?

Im sure there would be a case for sexual discrimination?

In my particular job at the moment i cant see that experience is accounted for as there are no pay band structures or increments. In my previous job, experience came with a 1-17 pay banding scale, and you would be incremented 1 step up the ladder every 9-12mths based on performance.

In my new job, there is no such structure, just a set basic + Standby/OT rate.

Due to having the same job title and responsibilities, i think personally that there should be an equal pay.

The point about the Tesco shelf stacker above is a good valid point. Would a 7yr experienced shelf stacker be paid more than a 1yr experienced shelf stacker?

I think best bet is just to ask the boss about a pay parity at some point in the future, and get onto CAB aswell just to ask if there is such a rule/law that can be enforced.

Yes its only £2k and i am inexperienced in comparison so why should i bother, but as a scotsman i'm as tight as they come and if that extra £2k is due to me then i'll be fighting for it

PaulC72

just a point of notice, they may down scale your collegue which will do you no favours

alpha charlie

I've just had my 6 month probation period signed off with my current employer. The current company has a "no talking about salary at work" policy and my last company didnt.
Boy is the current policy causing problems as 95% of the staff come from a career in which everyones pay rates were available on the net or published in black and white.
Just last week those of us who didnt get the 2008 pay rise were called in the managers office and given a letter stating we had been given a performance related pay rise.
The others in the office aren't stupid and have today had the manager over it, that left the 3 "new starters" (i'm one) being dragged into the office for a slapped wrist after "one of you has blabbed to the office"
All thats done has confirmed the 3 of us have had a rise and that someone else has blabbed as we know we havent said a word.
My letter is infact still sealed up and in my drawer so I dont even know what it says!!

Rant over but be carefull folks, money means the world to some folk!!
AC

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Mitchy, I don't know about your work situation, but I think the best way forward is just simply ask for clarity over the wage difference, there may be a reasonable explanation, there may not, but at least you'll know for sure from the horses mouth.

As for the question about shelf stackers, I'm not one, but do work in a shop, so may be to answer that one. Staff are on different wages due to the role, i.e. those who are customer service assistants, through to line managers (the actual managers are salaried and that's a whole different story). Once a new starter has passed their probation period, all staff are on the same wage, within their defined position (except from nightshift who get paid more obviously). Basically, there is no reward for time served, other than the more years served, the more holiday you get. Oh and the huge reward of £100 for 10 years service (I'm holding out for that )

One perk us long serving staff used to get was our profit shares, bonus if you like. Once there for two full years, you were eligible, but as you served more time you would get a greater share, therefore, someone who had been there say 8 years would get a higher payout than someone who'd only been there 2. However, due to some change in the law, this is no longer allowed, so everyone now gets the same in respect to years service. This is kind of fair, even though I'm losing out, as it's profit based, all the company needed to do to get around this is change the way the 'bonus' was worded.

Ultimately, in many workplaces now, there is little or no reward for dedication and loyalty to a company, which naturally pees long serving staff off. In some respects I find that unfair, but by the same token, if people are all pulling their weight, doing the same work, why should one person get more than another based purely on years served? Maybe reward long servers in different ways (not sure if that is in fact allowed now either). I personally think if there are going to be differences in wages/bonuses it should be more down to performance than how long a person has worked somewhere.

Sorry for going on a bit.