The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

Before you all start I am relating a conversation I had a while ago with my mate.

We were talking about how fat people are now demanding help from the NHS, how they are being let down by the system and should have free gastric bands etc. Now apart from some medical conditions I can't see these people being held down and force fed food.

His arguement was they should have treatment just as drug addicts get help.

Now, when I pointed out that I don't see fat people beating up granny or stealing from shops and doing a runner to feed their habit he saw the logic!

I know there is much written about the "Fat Gene" but I don't see many fat people in Africa! Or any non-westernised population. It's a diet thing so eat proper food!

INCOMING.......................................... ..

PeteBrant

Why is an addiction to eating any different to an addiction to alcohol or smoking or other drugs?

We have a national health service - If someone need help to improve thier health then give it to them - I don't see the debate really.

Dream Weaver

And where do you draw the line at who receives treatment on the NHS?

Why should people that ride superbikes/skydive/drive Subarus/climb/MTB at the weekend and crash/have an accident have their body parts fixed, any more than someone that eats too much?

If we are to have an NHS then it works by everyone paying into it, and EVERY person being able to use it. Some will use it more than others, some wont, thats how it works same as paying tax for other things.

davegtt

Pete, mainly because addicts to Alcohol and Smoking effects people around you, the help is not just for the addict, its for the community. I dont see how offering help to a fatty will help the community unless theres a shortage on food

CrisPDuk

Since I personally don't agree with the amount of help junkies get, generally speaking nobody pins them down and forces them to partake either I definitely don't think the money I work hard for should go to help some greedy ****** who can't even keep their paw out of the cookie jar for five minutes

For the record, I am overweight, but I don't blame anyone other than myself Like every other lardarse in the country I don't get enough exercise and I enjoy my food

PeteBrant

THis is just like the "Smokers shouldn't NHS treatment" argument - Except that Smokers are about £5billion on profit with the state.

I should imagine people that get to the point of needed medical attention due to being overweight are also in surplus due to additional VAT payments on food as well as salary etc.

PeteBrant

The NHS doesn't treat communities, it treats individuals.

Leslie

I think it is very difficult for some people to keep their weight down because it is part of their nature to put weight on more easily than others. It is still down to them to at least try to control it however, just like it is largely down to us to control the use of alcohol,cigarettes, and to resist the use of drugs.

My doctor said to me that the weight problem is very simple to fix-just don't eat so much. He is absolutely right of course-ask Snazy! I am not sure that expensive operations for stomach bands is right or fair on those who need more serious surgery for life threatening diseases. Like operations for cosmetic reasons as well. Not anywhere near as necessary as those for cancer etc. There is only so much money for all this sort of thing.

Les

SirFozzalot

I guess it could be argued that obese poeple will probably end up costing the NHS money anyway in the future with the increased risk of heart disease etc.

I suppose it could be seen as preventative maintenance.

Turbohot

I think BD finds weight problems less trouble and non-clinical, in comparison with other problems that need medical attention.


And exercise

There are plenty of overweight people in Africa. There are some African tribes that find mahoosive women more attractive. Then again, in some of the African patches, you see some seriously underweight people; not surprising with the unfruitful, waterless climate they live in. In other non-Western countries too, there are plenty of fat people.
"Gene" theory is ok, but in most cases, it's the wrong eating habits and lack of exercise, no doubt. Helplessly overweight people need help to regularise and re-programme themselves again. That's why they turn to NHS for help and support in any way possible. There are groups like Weightwatchers and Slimming World to offer them help. It's a similar concern to stress-related issues costing more money to NHS, TBH. "Change your ways", "change your mindset" or "change your job" could be said about them too. Although stress and depression problems must cost more money to NHS, I presume. Being overweight can cause depression as well, but not every depressed person is overweight, I think. In both cases (weight problems and depression), cognitive thinking process has to be triggered on. Some support in form of counselling/NHS can sort it.

PeteBrant

Elective surgery will always take second place to emergency surgery and rightly so.

However, if , say , a simple band fitting operation will mean that the person will not require a far more complex emergency operation later on down the line, isn't that better in the long run?

davegtt

Wait til Hunt reads that, youre in trouble

Snazy

oi keep me out of this lol.

Ok in fairness I think the same applies to all extremes. Fat people, 95% is choice, 5% cant control it. Chavvy kids 95% parental failures, 5% have mental issues and so on.

I think its important to identify the differences and influence the required changes to get the required result.
I lost 70lb in what some deem an extreme diet. Extreme or not, its LESS extreme than any surgery. It was easy to do once in the right mental state, and proved me wrong that the past 4-5 years of being overweight was something "I" could not control.
I put on weight over the last 2 weeks since, the op, and the past couple of days I have lost it again by simply correcting my eating.

95% of "fat people" could take control of their weight if they tried, and actually desired to, so I think in certain respects its a good thing reducing help and treatment on the NHS, and giving an incentive to get fit.
The number of people being prescribed the "magic pills" has sky rocketed, which clearly shows 2 things...

1/ there are a lot of people out there that KNOW they have weight issues
2/ the same people are too lazy to take ownership of their weight and health and want a quick easy lazy effortless fix! And no doubt want to be able to retain their unhealthy life styles.

Should people who fail to identify their own responsibilities towards their health be restricted from some treatments, smokers, drinkers, druggies, fatties.........? If it makes them take ownership and responsibility...... HELL YEAH!

David Lock

1) So your mate is saying that if you beat up grannies then you should get help but if you are a harmless, albeit large, citizen then you shouldn't. Something not quite right there....

2) In some African countries fat people are admired

3) I think they should be helped but not at the expense of more deserving causes - and there are a lot of those. dl

SJ_Skyline

He'll be busy firing up his Quattro

Luan Pra bang

The largest study of its kind but admitedly based in Holland not England showed that fat people cost the tax payer less overall than smokers and smokers cost less than healthy people simply because they die quicker and don't need pesions or care homes or treatments for arthritis and dementia etc

PeteBrant

Smokers here contribute £7 billion to the economy per year, and cost the NHS £1.5billion.

I don;t knwo what the figures are for fat people.


Basically if everyone stopped smoking tomorrow, then everyones tax would have to rise.

Leslie

You may be right Pete, I am not an expert, but I think if that people should be encouraged to sort themselves out when possible to save the money for more important surgery. I have also heard that the stomach band operation can actually be deadly dangerous! Its like smoking and drug abuse. You can tell people about all the dangers etc but the answer is in their hands if they want to to live a longer and more active life with less chance of the dreadful diseases that they are risking.

Les

stilover

I was watching a programm last year about over eating fatties in the States. You heard all the usuall bollox about being on every diet going.

One woman who was getting her stomach stappled was complaining to the camera that this is the only way she'll ever lose weight, as she hardly eats and can't understand why she is 25 stone. She was saying all this while sitting in a Dinner eating a Bagett the size of my arm.

Typical diet thinking (as proven by a few people I know) usually by woman. Starve themselves all week eating lettuce leaves for lunch. Congratulate themselves on Friday afternoon as to how good they are sticking to the diet, and thus have lost 2lbs this week. To celebrate their weight loss, they are going out for a Chinese on Saturday night, followed by a night on the pi55.

Come Monday morning, they're complaning because they've put weight on.

Jaybird-UK

I would welcome a second VAT level for food catagorised as unhealthy. raise the VAT rate to 20% on foods such as McDonalds, Pizza Hut, KFC etc and ensure the additional revenue is put to the NHS.

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

The arguement centred on "do fat people thieve, use menace or extortion to get food"?

As I see it there are hardly any hold ups in Iceland/Aldi/Lidl by fat people just for the food. How many drive thru "Big Mac Meal" heists take place by fatties?

That being said they would probabaly get away as Plod is so slow.

Tiggs

Will the fat *******s on here who dont want others to get help for their eating addiction pay for their own heart bypass when they hit the deck at 50?

Snazy

Amazingly the USA have this in some states, to discourage the consumption of the foods containing trans fats etc.

Tiggs. not sure that makes sense. Fat people saying fat people should get no help but needing heart bi-passes when they are older..... Kinda makes sense but seems a bit of a daft scenario.

Stilover, I know the sort you mean mate, 6 days of hell for a day of heaven and sin foods, and right back to square one lol
I think the length of time for a standard diet is what helped me decide on Lighterlife

borat52

Most food products does not have VAT levied on it, however the current system is a joke and I quote:
"A 0% Vat rate is applied to frozen chips and pizzas, meat pies, pastries and beefburgers, yet 21%, the highest rate, is levied on bottled water and tomato juice"
source:
Vat on food targeted in obesity war


So its a little different to smoking. If unhealthy food (ie high sugar, high trans fats, low nutrient) was taxed at a high rate I'd agree that fat people should be entitled to NHS treatment ( I think its pretty hard to get obese eating decent food anyway - ie avoid milk chocolate, fried food, cakes, cream,fizzy drinks ect)

However if the choice is (and remember the NHS simply rations a set amount of healthcare every year so every pound spent in one area means its not available to another) an operation for a fat person who could just go on a diet if they had half an ounce of willpower, or a lifesaving cancer/heart/brain treatment for someone who leads an otherwise healthy life and will die unless they get it then its a no brainer.

I see lots of cancer patients dying in the UK who'd get better odds of survival in the USA and while thats going on I'd rather resources go to them than someone who can solve their problems while going on a diet.

I think we need to socially accept that its bad to be overweight, in general overweight people look less attractive, are less healthy, and consume more food resources that people in shape. We're getting fatter as a nation, and you can blame that on genes as our grandmothers/grandfathers were not obese. We've also suffered from a period of people saying "its ok to be fat, if your comfortable with it" - well if being fat is important for you thats fair enough but understand it will statistically make you more unhealthy and reduce your life, and I dont think its fair that people in good shape have to pay for your indulgances. Then again I wouldn't help drug addicts either, I'd send them to national service and if they reoffended send them their for longer. They be more productive digging canals and building roads that getting high on the proceeds of stolen mobile phones in the corner of a bedsit.

Shark Man

Superglue their lips shut. Chain them to a tread mill and crank the speed up.

Seriously. I don't think the NHS should provide "alternate" fatty treatment: Gastric bands, stomach stapling, nutritionalists etc. They hog beds, waste surgeon's time (which could be spent cutting out cancers etc), and generally drain main hospital resources...which is intended for peopel with life threatening conditions; Not self inflicted conditions through being weak of mind and self control (same for smoking, drugs and alcohol).

What should be provided is a fat hospital. Bit like rehab, check them in, enforce a strict routine of diet and exercise and eating education. Surgery is not the cure.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

The 'fat' issue isn't always black and white. I totally agree some people are overweight because of eating too much or lack of exercise (or both), but in fairness that is not always the case. I have friends at work who eat like pigs (not healthy food either) and there is not a pick of weight on them. Yet I will admit I am overweight, but eat very little. I am on my feet all day, often running around after people and humping stuff about, so in my job at least I'm quite active, so I'm not a typical fattie who sits around all day stuffing my face and doing **** all. TBH, some of those thin people may well be less healthy than I am, it just doesn't show as they aren't fat, but not being fat doesn't mean they're healthy.

I have to ask myself, in some cases is there more to being fat than just being greedy, as I'm anything but that. I just think it is a little ignorant to assume that all overweight people are just over eating etc. when in some cases it seems no matter what you do, you are just maybe prone to being overweight, and can't seem to shift it.

j4ckos mate

speaking as someone who is quite overweight, i think i can over some authority on being a fat git,

i have an over active pieroid gland

Tiggs

lets not be silly - you are fat because you eat more calories than you need. End of. If i borrow a fiat panda and put the same fuel in ot that i put in my BMW it will overflow pretty quick. Its no good me saying "oh, but i do the same miles as th BMW"....know your body. You dont have a fuel gauge but you have a mirror!

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Right, so they eat more than me and worse food than me, and yet they are thin. I eat around an average of 700 calories a day, and the recommendation for a woman is 2000. Go figure, it would seem to me there is more to being larger than just what goes in. If I was putting away 5000 calories a day, then I would accept I was doing wrong, but that isn't the case.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Metabolic rates vary from person to person. Those with slow metabolisms will put on weight a lot easier than those with fast metabolisms.