Suresh

Those crazy Dutchies are at it again. Owing to my 'furriner' name I even got an invite to go to the local mosque for an eventual screening. Finally if it does get made screened I don't expect him to live to see out the end of 2008

Van Gogh Redux? Another Anti-Koran Film Stirs Up Holland - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

Another Anti-Koran Film Stirs Up Holland

By Patrick McGroarty
Déjà vu in Holland: A Dutch politician plans to release a film that rips the Koran for promoting violence and intolerance. Politicians and Muslim leaders alike are afraid of a repeat of 2004, when filmmaker Theo van Gogh was murdered on the streets of Amsterdam.



A Dutch politician's plan to release a film that charges the Koran with promoting violence and intolerance has sparked controversy in the Netherlands. Government officials are distancing themselves from the project and stepping up security at home and at embassies abroad, while Muslim leaders fear that it could strain relations between the Dutch and their large Muslim immigrant population. Geert Wilders, leader of the right-wing Freedom Party, says he will release a 10-minute-long film on Friday that shows how the Koran is used by Islamic radicals to promote homophobia, the abuse of women and violence. The film was slated to debut on Jan. 25 but as of last Friday Wilders had not found a Dutch broadcaster willing to air it. If he can not find one by Friday, he says he will post it on the Internet.

mrtheedge2u2

Suresh, from somone who lives in Holland.. this has been overhyped... no one gives a **** here....

As anyone with half a brain knows, the bible, Koran, Beano, Dandy or whatever can be found to have radical tendancies yadda yadda yadda

Petem95

It’s a sad irony that the Dutch values of tolerance and embracing other cultures have allowed an intolerant and brutal religion to take root in their country. Now they seem to be paying the price

Alan C

That's a moderate religious country for you.
Ooooh, we're a moderate religious country too................

stilover

Expect riot's in London anytime soon.

Lum

Cant we just find some way to convince the extremist Muslims that the Scientologists have dissed their faith and vice versa, then let the two of them fight it out.

It'll be like Irish Alien vs Predator. "Whoever loses, we win"

Leslie

I cannot believe that people feel they have to create such violent feelings by insulting a religion in such a way. It is just like that idiot Rushdie who needed police protection after his book which was designed to make the worst kind of accusations and it cost this country dear to save his life from the Fatwa which was placed on him. He of course made a mint in the meantime!

A reasonably written account is one thing and it is fair enough to make a sensible case for the opposite view, but sheer insult is a very silly way to go about it and will cost people dear in the future.

Les

Dan W

I was always taught not to bite that hand that feeds me.

Brendan Hughes

So the heading of the thread "Koran film" might be a bit more explanatory if it said "Anti-Koran film to be released by right-wing politician"?

Alan C

Les, have you (anyone?) seen the film?

If it's plainly offensive for offensives sake then I may actually agree with you. But if it's a balanced, well done 10 minute fundementalist take on their twisting of the Koran then why shouldn't it be aired?

Have you read Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses' or just spouting stuff your heard through the rabid media?

If you haven't noticed, we're not (yet) in a repressive state that bans and punishes free speech or free thought and punishes with death your opposing religious views or ideals. Aren't we in the 'free' West? Do you actually agree that Rushdie should be killed for writing what most people thought was a thought provoking and important piece of work? He did not set out to offend anyone. Some extremists believed he'd blasphemed against the prophet and therefore, should be put to death. You'll probably find the same people behind the call to put to death the school teacher who let her School children call their class teddy bear after the prophet too.

Islam's motives are pretty clear and obvious and their and other religious moderates and apologetics (anyone seeing a moderate pattern forming here?) will obfuscate and cloud the issues as normal, and the creep will continue.

So we have to;

• Shy away or refrain from free speech?
• Remain quiet and hope this all goes away?
• Be afraid to challenge things that actually need challenging?
• Give rise to a PC culture that means we're effectively silenced against making ANY intelligent and rational comment on religion?
• Apologise for the very democratic ideals that we all enjoy so much?
• Cow down to extremism?

I can't believe how scary a society like that would be.

Hold on, I can......

Luan Pra bang

I tried to read it and found it so dull that I binned it after about 70 pages and I am pretty sure he WAS being deliberately offensive but it is his right to do so.
He should have been killed for crimes against literature.

Alan C

Quality. Now that's something I'm not going to argue with. I did try and read the book, but like you I couldn't get into it, so ended up skimming through the inflammatory stuff enough to make a fairly sound judgement; a bit like Lady Chatterly...

I'd disagree that he was being deliberately offensive. I didn't get that from the book. I can see how people may be offended, but that part really is subjective. A state leader calling for his death and people actively seeking it, is an affront to civilised people, and therefore the irony is not lost on me that this sort of behavior creates work like the film were discussing.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Amen !

Suresh

Surprised this thread came back from the dead. To respond to your points

I don't agree that no one gives a. As stated in the first post my local mosque even contacted to me to come for the screening . Also, do you follow the Dutch media at all, for example -?
nu.nl/internet zoekresultaten voor: wilders
NOSJOURNAAL
Mijn Marokko | welkom wilders


Wilders' point is that if the community involved cannot take criticism then they don't fit Dutch values and that is the problem that needs to be addressed. There is an elephant in the room and the PVV is not going to ignore it unlike the PvDA for example. He is simply demonstrating this point and he's right of course (in my view). All beliefs and the followers are not the same tbh. 'Life of Brian' didn't get a violent response anywhere in the world, did it?

Alan C

My fault. I've been researching religion from the point of my 'atheism' (I actually don't like this word as we don't have words for people who don't believe in Astrology or fairies for example) or non belief in a god and this struck a chord as I was searching through for interesting religious stuff to respond to.

It really is about time we stood up to this religious madness, delusions and simply unproven history. An article written by Edmund Standing sums the whole religious charade up beautifully.

Where scientific research may start with a reasonable proposition based on prior evidence (a hypothesis) and then examine further data to see if this proposition is factually accurate, or may simply lead to the discovery of data which no-one had previously predicted, theology starts with the acceptance of ideas that have no factual basis or for which the evidence is appallingly weak and proudly proclaims acceptance of these ideas on the basis of 'faith' as a virtue, and then goes on to attempt to make these a priori beliefs appear intelligible and rational. In other words, the 'results' of theology have been arrived at before study to confirm them has taken place. The theologian does not approach the basic tenets of Christian faith as possible truths to be tested for logical consistency; he or she instead begins with the conclusion that a series of internally incoherent, pre-scientific, and fantastic 'beliefs' derived from 'faith' are true, and then attempts to dress these beliefs up in the clothes of intellectual credibility.

It never ceases to amaze me that when presented with this type of rational, thorough and simple premise, religion just clouds the issue with a fog of pseudo-intellectual tripe and proclaims that only a person of faith can 'really understand'.

Let me laugh at that last comment again....

Fuzz

It's not so much being an Atheist, as a theist is still belief in "something" higher up.

Non believers of lets face it "the un-knowable" are Agnostic.

Theist - there is someone looking over us but I don't know what.

Agnostic - This is yr lot, so get on with it and live it, cos you're a long time dead!!

Alan C

An Athiest is someone who has an absence of belief in deities, or gods. This in odd term as, mentioned below, we don't have terms for non-belief in the Loch Ness Monster.
If there was even ONE provable fact for the existence of a god or ONE provable fact for the fantasies of the religious texts, then you'd find a lot more Agnostics about the place.
But unfortunately, there's nothing. Not a single shred.
A Theist is someone who believes in one or more gods and therefore requires no proof.
An Agnostic claims that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of the existence of a god.

I'd argue that we are all Agnostic in terms of the Loch Ness Monster or UFO's, as there has been some photographic 'proof' and credible eye witness accounts of something there...

abbott

dude your so so so right there !

Leslie

No I have not seen the film. I was guided by the comments by the OP. Of course people should be able to speak against others' beliefs as long as it is done is a reasonable manner without insulting comments.

Like Rushdie's book, we may well not know enough about the religion in question to know if it is being insulted or being criticised in a fair manner.

Les

Alan C

As you know, I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding the reasonable manner of the challenge.

Ther is however a large difference to insulting one religion with the 'Life of Brian' which resulted in very little outcry and another where hundreds take to UK streets calling for the beheading of cartoonists.

I and many others are probably very conscious of the words they use on here; because of the insult that certain groups may get from the posts. People should be free to say what they wish within reasonable, UK Law driven boundaries (and even SNET T&C's). Not by ancient stone age laws based on fantasy and which have no place in a civilised World.

Suresh

www.fitnathemovie.com

"Coming Soon" to a tinderbox near me! Fitna is reportedly an arabic word for ' disgreement or division' Dutch TV aren't too keen to screen it, funnily enough.

Alan C

I've seen a few excerpts and it looks OK....so far.

The Zohan

I Found Life of Brian very funny, it is good to ber able to laugh at oneself, beliefs, history etc. I did not find it offensive or in bad taste, then again i am a fan of Python.

I will watch the Koran film, i think it pays to look at all sides and POV's even if it is through the eyes and editing table of the director.


Seems these days people are all to willing to get offended by pretty much anything.

A bit of tollerance and respect for others and their beliefs would go a long way.

myblackwrx

iTrader: (1)

Hasn't worked for the last few thousand years and never will as there is always some moron (of any race,creed and religion) who gets into their head to have a go at someone slightly different from them.

I always laugh my **** off at Life of Brian (a film with soooo many cult quotes)

PeteBrant

Life of Brian resulted is huge outcry (although not to the level of asking for beheadings) - Certain demonstrations, banning (the film was banned by lots of local councils, some that didnt even have cinemas ) It was banned for 8 years in Ireland, in Norway. New York has mass pickets, and banned outright in some states.

There was even a live tv debate on BBC2 about it.

I would say that the outcry over Life of Brian exceeded anything that we have seen from Islaminc protests (despite beheading threats from a few idiots)

myblackwrx

iTrader: (1)

Shortly after the film was released, Cleese and Palin engaged in a debate about it on the BBC2 discussion programme Friday Night, Saturday Morning, in which Malcolm Muggeridge and Mervyn Stockwood, the Bishop of Southwark, put the case against the film. Muggeridge and the Bishop had arrived 15 minutes late to see a screening of the picture prior to the debate, missing the establishing scenes which demonstrated that Brian and Jesus were two different characters, and hence contended that it was a send-up of Christ himself.

One of the most controversial scenes was Brian's Crucifixion; most Christian protestors said that it was mocking as it was supposed to be when Jesus suffered and forgave sins and they turned it into a "Boys Day Out" (such as when Mr Cheeky turns to Brian and says: "See, It's not so bad when you get up here") and into a further sing-song. Director Terry Jones said in an interview as a reply to this scene: "Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly".

Slightly off the OP topic but just to show how people read what they want to from anything and use it as an insult.

OllyK

Sorry but this gets my goat somewhat.

It's a common misconception that agnosticism is the mid point of a linear transition from theism to atheism. It isn't. It's a separate concept and just as you have atheism and theism, you have agnosict and gnostic.

Theism is to do with a belief in god(s)
Atheism is the lack of the above belief
Gnosticism is about having knowledge
Agnosticism is about lacking knowledge

Every theist and atheist are, by definition, agnostic. If they had knowledge then it would no longer be a belief. The following image may help

Suresh

Here it is! By all accounts more a caricature than an insult. So nothing to go burning stuff and rioting about, then

English version

LiveLeak.com - Fitna the Movie: Geert Wilders' film about the Quran (English)


Edited to add...

EN and NL versions have already been downloaded more than 3 million times in 5 hours. It is the most-read story on the bbc site at the moment as well. I've seen it now and it is a propaganda film which is anti-muslim rather than anti-koran, per se. It isn't insulting to the religion, which is a relief. I see where he is coming from, which is not surprising as my views are very similar.

Dutch muslim organisations tried and failed to find anything illegal about it.


You Tube uploaded version is much faster than 'takealeak'

Part1 YouTube - Geert Wilders Fitna Part 1
Part2 YouTube - Geert Wilders Fitna Part 2

Alan C

Thanks for the link mate. Will take a hard look this weekend.

....sadly, this may not stop the fanatics finding something to behead someone for....

davyboy

I linked directly to this last night, and ther thread must have lasted.....oooh, about 30 secs

Just such a tolerant bunch!