Luan Pra bang

Here is the thing, you know sweet FA about Islam and specifically moderate Islam in the UK, yet claim to know everything. Time and time again I have used reality to show how full of crap you are with regards to your opinions yet you cling on to your ignorance like its a comfort blanket. I will no longer try to use actual reality to counter your ignorance becuase it would appear obvious that you have no intention of learning from, or listening to another point of view.
A point you may like to consider is the positive impact religion has on the world, our system of law was based on christian values and previous to that our system of medieval law was based on Islamic law.
Wether god exists or not the human brain has a need to create or compose a deity and luckily for us the majority of the teachings of the major religions set a good moral footprint to follow. What we define as right and wrong only became defined as right or wrong based on an evolution of christian values other cultures exposed to different religions and deities have none of the moral bedrocks that enabled our communities to flourish. Wether god is real or not is one question, but there can be little dispute that the world needs to believe in him.

Alan C

You're telling me stuff I already know. I've admitted several times here that some religious teachings have a good side and I'd say continue to have a positive effect on society. But funnily enough, your well intentioned diatribe has a fatal flaw; this is a common tactic by the way... You've only shown the one side of religion. The good side as it happens. I've also said this before: these good bits are the ones that get trotted out in the majority of sermons all over the UK. Funnily enough, the ones calling for death and destruction are a little more scarce. We're starting to look toward fanaticism and extremism for those little religious inspired gems... But surely they are all part of the same book and teachings!! I'm afraid you, Les and every other believer have to take the rough with the smooth.... you can't choose which bits you want to take away... if you do, why bother calling yourselves Christian?

I must admit the comments saying I'm 'full of crap' are rather Christian and well tempered / mannered. Thanks, that helps my case no end and demonstrates a lot about the consistently defensive (and somewhat ignorant and aggressive) nature you and Les continue to show.

Do you honestly believe medieval law and morals have a place in 2009?? Some of the more generic ones may... But no wonder the 3rd world is exactly that.

Here's a thing: Show me where moderate Islam has roundly condemned the bad side of Islam, in a worldwide context... Forget the polictical side. Show me the demonstrations condemning the religious incited deaths, honour murders, maimings etc etc... I'm not just talking about you.. I want to see real Muslims, in numbers, condemning it...

YOUR brain may have a need a create a deity. Mine doesn't. I see life through open eyes... not covered by a fog of ancient unproven myth. But religious blind acceptance of this 'fact' and the lack of ability to see the logic, total and utter lack or proof and downright stupidity of what used to be biblical facts but now appear more and more as allegory, supports the fact that these people, for some reason, are mentally susceptible to this delusion.

Before you go shouting, this isn't meant to be an insult. You yourself have said God may or may not exist and the brain has a need to create and compose a deity. By definition then, people are deluding themselves by creating something that offers solace or a crutch in which to live their life by. Why can't they do it without the book and its teachings? As you elude to.. it's simply down to a mental function that requires them to believe. A bit like the ancient inbuilt self preservation function that has enabled man to survive.

Leslie

Well its good to find out that you are not very important after all but just like the rest of us really.

I would like to ask however, why do you feel it is your duty (surely not God given this time) to persuade us all that none of us should believe in a religion?

Are you an atheist preacher who wants to force all that down our throats then?

Les

Dedrater

Very weak Leslie, but at least your condescension and defensive attitude has changed.

Geezer

I'm sorry, that's just rubbish. Society had morals long before Christianity, Islam, Judaism. It's simply how social and intelligent beings evolve, otherwise they cannot function effectively. You can even see it in primates.

Geezer

Alan C

Before I answer; can I point out that I'm answering and justifying myself here? Not a problem either as this is what helps discourse and understanding.

I would liken it to any scientific lesson or a lesson where you're teaching a subject with as known baseline of understanding.
i.e Physics - these are Newtons laws and this is how gravity influences our world.
Chemistry - this is what happens when you mix these chemicals and this is what happens when you freeze or heat something
History - this is what happened at this point in time..

You get the message...

But if someone came along and thought differently, then we have proof or well established theories that can show that this person is either totally wrong or pretty sure they are. If they have a theory that stacks up in some ways, then so much the better. That gives us something to look at, challenge and see how right they are...

If this person believed in a completely unproven fantastical theory that was hard to believe or comprehend, and had no proof that (for example) there was an object circling the earth, then we'd rightly demand proof. If this circling object was a magical teapot or hidden alien ship and not a stellar or scientific object, and we'd call the person delusional if he was convinced it was there...

There is simply no difference to the biblical stories, as I could list these fantastical stories all day long.

All the logical, free thinking and scientific communities require is a single shred of proof or evidence in which to start discussion. There is none. Not one single piece of evidence. Not even the smallest piece of evidence in which to base the idea on. Nothing. Therefore it MUST be placed into a category of unproven myth until someone does come along with evidence.

My stance therefore is to point all that out. In the most eloquent and understanding way I can. I will also be robust in my challenge if that person is convinced and bases their life (sometimes totally) on the fact that the teapot is going to help them in some mysterious way.

I must admit it's hard sometimes not to laugh at the ridiculous and incredulous stories...especially as they are taken to a very serious level!

That's the point I want to raise. I'm passionate about science and logic and the advantages that brings to our lives. I firmly believe religion is both backward, stagnant in thought, dangerous and evil in various guises. It does bring moral and ethical positives that science cannot deal with. But these are also equally logical (do unto others etc) and therefore cannot be argued against (if you are a sane, balanced and rounded person).

Using this BB, I'm unable to force it down your throats because you can ignore me or block me... so that's not my intention.

Let's call it awareness and enlightenment.

Diesel

G, did you really just develop this into a 'animals have morals' thing? We haven't even established if there is a God or two yet, so keep the worms in the can mate! Ohh and I think Herod was actually a bad guy - long before any written morals of Judaism!

D

Alan C

Problem we have here is that Homosapiens (Man) have been around for about 100,000 to 150,000 years (this depends on who you talk to and how you define civilised man).

(The Bible makes the whole Earth coming into existence at about 6,000 years - but we'll gloss over that bit....as does every religious person!)

So morals, ethics and simple civilised behaviour has been developing for quite some time... all with ups, downs and good periods as the generations past.

It's only when we get to 2,009 years ago that we suddenly get proper morals as laid down by a deity who decided that the previous 148,000 years were OK (or 4,000 years since Adam arrived).... In his omniscience, he decided to communicate these important moral lessons to a handful of illiterate peasants in the Middle East.... to whom he then spent a lot of time punishing and helping and punishing and helping... asking for and condoning the massacre of men, women and children.... bringing plagues and floods on to people...

So, have we learnt any morals from that?

Yes... for christs sake don't use God as a role model.

Diesel

I dont know if I should be chuckling at that Alan, but I am! Pestilence and petrification are clearly my future - take the rough with the smooth

D

Geezer

Listen, animals have morals, end of. My and my sheep didn't even kiss until I offered to marry her

Geezer

Leslie

Dedrator.

You really are scraping the barrel in you attempt to attack me. I have in no way been condescending in any of my posts directed to Alan C. Neither have I been on the defensive, how can I be when I told him that I was not interested in having a discussion with him for obvious reasons. I do not have to defend my beliefs to anyone anyway!

Alan C.

Why do you feel you have to make a big fuss about the whole business? No one has attacked you for your ideas, certainly not me. I have already said I don't actually care what you believe and neither would I want to change what you think.

What then is the point of trying to work up a deep discussion over such a subject? You are certainly not going to influence me, all I want is to be allowed to go my own way without me or my beliefs being denigrated or insulted. If someone does that for no good reason then I have the right to reply on a public forum pointing out the unnecessarily unpleasant behaviour of the person involved. I have done all the thinking I need to do off my own bat and have made up my own mind thank you!

You can prattle on as much as you like trying to influence others and tell us all how deeply knowledgeable you are with all those people you like to quote etc., but just don't expect me to join in an argument which we know will never be resolved. I just can't be bothered in fact.

None of your insults and inaccurate inferences will cause me to change my mind.

Les

Dedrater

Attack? Someone needs to step away from the keyboard, if not just to stop boring everyone with your dreary repetitive replys.

If you are not man enough to engage in this discussion then stop contradicting yourself.

Leslie

What kind of reply can I make to repetitive accusations?

Why should I be considered forced to enter such a discussion?

Kindly show me where I have contradicted myself, I would hate to miss correcting such an error!

Les

Alan C

Attack? Insults? Accusations?

A bunch of descriptive words that bear no resemblance to what's written below. This whole piece is about discussion, to which you've brought nothing.

You've constantly failed to answer a single point. You've constantly dodged and hid from any responsibility to help people understand the religious viewpoint on this. It doesn't have to be your immediate opinion either....

I've answered every question. In full. Open, honestly and at some length. I've justified what I've said and given full personal reasons when necessary. I'm sharing with you and those interested a different viewpoint and of course I'll try to influence people on and show the falsities of religion. You call this 'prattling on': I call it intelligent discourse and debate.

This one sided conversation is pointless. As you bring nothing to the discussion apart from further fog and obfuscation, I'm going to stop replying to your incessant negativity and concentrate on those people willing to listen to what I have to say and to debate with those people of faith or differing viewpoints.**

**When someone of faith actually comes along and refutes or shows a plausible explanation to anything that I've said or put up to be challenged........

Leslie

On the contrary, I have understood the points you have made quite well enough and I recognise your style pretty well also. As I mentioned before, that is the main reason I will not have a public disscussion with you. If you read your own posts with an open mind, you will see the evidence of what I have said. I don't remember actually asking you many questions in fact, there was no point since I was not going to enter a discussion. It seems pretty plain that you would never respect my right to my own beliefs anyway. That is certainly the impression that you give.

There is no responsibility devolved on me to have to argue with you, because that is what it would come to. Those who like me accept that there is an all powerful being will understand exactly what I mean and that is good enough for me. I have no wish to change other people's thinking, they should make up their own minds I reckon.

You will have to find another "patsy" on whom to demonstrate your scintillating knowledge to enable you to preach to the converted.

I somehow can't get this vision out of my mind of you standing on a soapbox, it would never be a pulpit, waving your arms about and leading a choir in irreligious songs and chanting!

Personally, I just can't be bothered to have to put up with your denouncements in a discussion which we already know would lead nowhere.

Les

Alan C

If you knew me, you'd soon realise you couldn't be further from the truth.

Again, we move no further forward. Just a trade of views where you, again, tell us you're not going to argue, debate or discuss. But in reality you're constantly attempting to justify that position... whilst not justifying it.

If you can't stand the intensity or the focus of the discussion or the fair but robust probing nature of the questions (which you clearly can't) then move on to another thread where you can tell them they're wrong but again give no reasoning behind your viewpoint.

I fully respect your viewpoint! I believe you're deluded, weak minded (in religious context) and require the crutch of religion for some innate or personal reason, but I still respect your freedom to think that way. An extremist Muslim or other religious extremist will not.

Again you state... 'I have no wish to change other people's thinking, they should make up their own minds I reckon.' But you miss the point that Islam and right wing Christians DO want to change the way I think. Islamic scripture practically demands it!

We're now faced with 57, undemocratic Islamic nations forcing through a UN law forbidding us open and fair criticism of their belief system. Once in, this paves the way for them to Force upon us their religious right, slowly and creeping, until we have no democracy left, only religious dogma.

Muslims have spread the word of Allah and the prophet for 2,000 years, another few 10's of years here won't matter....

The more you close your eyes, procrastinate about this and that and complain about the challenges you read on here.... an Islamic state or at best a British democratic state with part Sharia and other such laws is creeping up behind you....

I've not been accused of it yet, but I'd like to state that a BNP run state is equally as scary...

Leslie

One day our paths might just cross, even over a beer!, and I think we would probably both respect each other's views and even find some agreement in places.

We neither know each other's real characters of course, impossible to work that out from posts like this.

I am certainly not delusional,neither am I weak minded as far as religion is concerned, and it is unfair to say that I need a crutch to be able to live my life-except for walking but that is a different story! I was sorry that you felt you had to accuse me of that. Would not help the argument anyway!

Like you I have spent time thinking about the start of it all, and how all we know about the Universe and our own world came into existence. I acknowledge the discoveries made by scientists and the theories put forward to explain everything. I accept too that they may find more facts too instead of just theories. I feel however that is not the whole story. In other words, my take on religion etc is much different to what I believe you to think.

When it comes to fundamentalists and fanatics, don't for a moment think that I am not fully alive to what you are saying. my point has always been however that the average religion if followed in its basic form is not a force for evil, but more likely to be the opposite. I don't think that religion as a whole deserves to be castigated for its own sake. All the troubles stem from people of questionable character who are engineering circumstances to their own requirements. If religions did not exist, these people would find another way to influence people to follow their wishes.

That is as far as I wish to go on the question of religion etc. I believe also in tolerance all round but nevertheless not being blind to the dangers that you mentioned. When it comes to it, you can't beat a bit of lateral thinking, especially with a contentious subject.

I would much prefer to end our "fencing" on a friendly note.

Les

Alan C

It's my shout if we do meet..
Also, please don't take the 'delusion' and other comments as personal offence. They are common terms that, though not endearing, are an accurate way to describe what I and other non-believers feel are the human 'symptoms' of religion.

I argue you would use the very same terms when applied to someone worshipping and devoting their life and being to the Cottingley fairy myth. To be honest, I wouldn't believe you if you said you wouldn't.

Thank you for the starting insight into your beliefs. That barrier coming down means the dialogue can be two way, rather than based on assumptions from me. Your assumption that there must be something missing is common amongst those who are agnostic. This is the inherent, chemical and age old 'need' to believe in something. You rightly say that if there was no God myth, then there'd be something else for Humans to believe in.

I feel my take on religion is now widely understood. The bible has failed to stand up to it's original 'last word of God' as science has picked holes in it. As soon as one piece unravelled, theologians simple retreated to allegory. As soon as this happened the bubble burst. But years of indoctrination and birth into a particular family means such beliefs aren't going to go away and people will focus on another 'gap' that science can't yet answer definitively. But these gaps are getting smaller.

Couple this with not a single piece of evidence beyond the Biblical stories and theological interpretation and you have nothing left.

I really hope you do see the dangers of radicalism and extremism within the same group membership you occupy called religion. I just wished the Christians would start waking up to the fact that Islam is a loud, devout and highly focussed movement and it's simply steam rolling itself through both peaceful and non-peaceful means.

I have a feeling things are going to get worse before they get better...

I agree in part that it's people who finally pull the trigger. But their belief in a paradise afterlife with virgins etc (proof indeed that it's man made!) makes that process so much easier and doable. And that part is not twisting the belief system.

Our fencing has been friendly. It will remain that way too.

Dazza's-STi

Al, fantasic bit of writing...!

Dazza's-STi

From fist commenting on this thread I've never done so much reading about religious beliefs; and TBH, the more I read the more preposterous it all looks;and the more evident humanity's need to believe in anything becomes apparent.

And Al,that reference to the celestial teapot, did it for me mate... pure genius :-)

Alan C

Hi buddy...

I can't take the credit for that mate.... that's a Richard Dawkins analogy. But still genius!

To aid your growing bnook list, I'm just starting on his The Blind Watchmaker book tonight and The Selfish Gene book for later...

Both are his takes and education on Darwansim. Not directly addressing religioin, but refuting every single God designed argument.

I'd also recommend The God Delusion and Sam Harris's The End of faith. Take a read of two Christopher Hitchins books God Is Not Great and The Portable Atheist. Exceptionally well presented.

Also, Google Chris Hitchins and Harris in their various debates with various religious leaders. Real enlightening and top stuff.

Dawkins' own site is also has an excellent forum and place to see vids and listed to audio..

Dazza's-STi

Got the God delusion on audio book for the car... must admit I had to lookup many of the words Dawkin uses...

Anyhows, back to NASA TV for the launch