One for the emergency services workers on here...
16 October 2007, 12:08 PM
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One for the emergency services workers on here...
First of all I will say that I think the emergency services do a fantastic and difficult job and not a job I would like to do myself.
However what I saw this morning I just can't understand and wondered if someone could explain if there is a good reason why what happened did.
There was a biker hit by a 4.5 tonne truck on the A2 this morning at the South Circular Flyover just before the Kidbrooke interchange. The accident was between the off and on slip roads for the flyover and all traffic was going off the A2 and going up the other slip road avoiding the accident. I sat in traffic just behind the accident for what was 30 minutes before I was close enough to see it. What amazed me was that after at least 30 minutes of laying on the floor with people round him covering him in blankets there were still no emergency services on the scene. Police vans were on the other carriageway heading 2 miles back to turn round only to come back in all the stationary traffic with no hard shoulder. They couldn't get through basically.
Now what I couldn't understand is why they didn't take one of two other options. Firstly they could have shut the other carriageway while they attended the biker and jumped over the central reservation until emergency services arrived on the correct carriageway knowing the choice of going to the next junction and coming back would be stationary traffic. Alternatively they could have come off the southbound junction, gone under the flyover and come up the Northbound carriageway slip road and driven back 200 yds to the accident. They did neither and instead proceeded to head a couple of miles in the wrong direction only to get stuck in all the traffic coming back taking them at least 30 minutes to get to the accident.
Then 10 minutes later after I had gone past down the slip road and up the other side I saw an ambulance and paramedic going to the accident. So after at least 40 minutes (assuming they did actually go under the flyover and not all the way past and back again) of the accident happening the injured man hadn't received any medical attention from the emergency services. I don't fancy his chances too much if it was serious/life threatening.
If it was out in the middle of no where then 40 minutes response time could be understandable but the fact that this is in Greater London makes a 40 minute response time to a serious RTA unbeliveable in my opinion especially when they could have made it 5 minutes.
Why did the emergency services not shut the wrong side of the carriageway just while they give initial first aid until someone arrives the other side? Someones life was at risk (no one could potentially determine the seriousness of the injuries by looking at the biker laying on the road even if he was conscious). Why did they not come off their slip road, go under the flyover and then go back up the slip road the other side and drive back up to the accident? These two options would have got treatment to the biker in 5 minutes.
However what I saw this morning I just can't understand and wondered if someone could explain if there is a good reason why what happened did.
There was a biker hit by a 4.5 tonne truck on the A2 this morning at the South Circular Flyover just before the Kidbrooke interchange. The accident was between the off and on slip roads for the flyover and all traffic was going off the A2 and going up the other slip road avoiding the accident. I sat in traffic just behind the accident for what was 30 minutes before I was close enough to see it. What amazed me was that after at least 30 minutes of laying on the floor with people round him covering him in blankets there were still no emergency services on the scene. Police vans were on the other carriageway heading 2 miles back to turn round only to come back in all the stationary traffic with no hard shoulder. They couldn't get through basically.
Now what I couldn't understand is why they didn't take one of two other options. Firstly they could have shut the other carriageway while they attended the biker and jumped over the central reservation until emergency services arrived on the correct carriageway knowing the choice of going to the next junction and coming back would be stationary traffic. Alternatively they could have come off the southbound junction, gone under the flyover and come up the Northbound carriageway slip road and driven back 200 yds to the accident. They did neither and instead proceeded to head a couple of miles in the wrong direction only to get stuck in all the traffic coming back taking them at least 30 minutes to get to the accident.
Then 10 minutes later after I had gone past down the slip road and up the other side I saw an ambulance and paramedic going to the accident. So after at least 40 minutes (assuming they did actually go under the flyover and not all the way past and back again) of the accident happening the injured man hadn't received any medical attention from the emergency services. I don't fancy his chances too much if it was serious/life threatening.
If it was out in the middle of no where then 40 minutes response time could be understandable but the fact that this is in Greater London makes a 40 minute response time to a serious RTA unbeliveable in my opinion especially when they could have made it 5 minutes.
Why did the emergency services not shut the wrong side of the carriageway just while they give initial first aid until someone arrives the other side? Someones life was at risk (no one could potentially determine the seriousness of the injuries by looking at the biker laying on the road even if he was conscious). Why did they not come off their slip road, go under the flyover and then go back up the slip road the other side and drive back up to the accident? These two options would have got treatment to the biker in 5 minutes.
16 October 2007, 12:19 PM
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The 2 unbreakable rules of working on a busy road/motorway are:
1) Don't try to cross the central reservation
2) Don't drive the wrong way up the carriageway
1) Don't try to cross the central reservation
2) Don't drive the wrong way up the carriageway
16 October 2007, 12:36 PM
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What even when there is no traffic on the side of the accident and you can close the other carriageway behind you (there were 3+ police vehicles)?
That doesn't go with the photos/video footage of when that biker was shot recently in Oxfordshire coming back from the Bulldog Bash.
That doesn't go with the photos/video footage of when that biker was shot recently in Oxfordshire coming back from the Bulldog Bash.
16 October 2007, 01:58 PM
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Vans are not traffic, so I guess they wont really be used to shutting down lanes etc. Also, the police cant really do much to help - sounds cold but think about it - at the scene of an accident other than give basic first aid there is little they can do as they dont have the kit.
What he needed was a paramedic on a bike I guess - but they are few and far between.
Hope he was ok.
What he needed was a paramedic on a bike I guess - but they are few and far between.
Hope he was ok.
16 October 2007, 04:10 PM
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Honestly..... I think they have probably taken a route considered safe and appropriate, then fallen victim to the traffic and just got stuck in it.
They would not anticipate the traffic would be unpassable.
Im sure there is good reasoning behind it all, but I do agree, its frustrating to look on and see the help but know it cant get there.
They would not anticipate the traffic would be unpassable.
Im sure there is good reasoning behind it all, but I do agree, its frustrating to look on and see the help but know it cant get there.
16 October 2007, 04:15 PM
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What even when there is no traffic on the side of the accident and you can close the other carriageway behind you (there were 3+ police vehicles)?
That doesn't go with the photos/video footage of when that biker was shot recently in Oxfordshire coming back from the Bulldog Bash.
That doesn't go with the photos/video footage of when that biker was shot recently in Oxfordshire coming back from the Bulldog Bash.
Im not sure if im thinking of the right section of the road but are we talking about the other lane being the one heading towards the Blackwall Tunnel? What time of day was this?
16 October 2007, 05:15 PM
#7
The problem with stopping in the other carriage way is that it will cause traffic caos and may cause further accidents. This is always an option as would be coming off the slip road and back up the carriageway the wrong way.
It could be a case that the public who were with him have phoned 999 and explained that he is not too seriously hurt - they may heve been nursing staff there. The police may have also been informed that the accident was on the other carriageway
It could be a case that the public who were with him have phoned 999 and explained that he is not too seriously hurt - they may heve been nursing staff there. The police may have also been informed that the accident was on the other carriageway
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16 October 2007, 06:14 PM
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At that time of day everyone who lives/works in that area knows that stretch of road is congested at the best of times and with it being only two lanes with no hard shoulder the emergency vehicles would have no chance of getting through, thats why I found it unbelievable they went the route they did.
At least there were no flowers at the scene on the way home so he wasn't killed but the paramedic being called must have meant it was pretty serious.
16 October 2007, 08:27 PM
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The accident was about 07.15 on the Blackwall Tunnell bound carriageway just after the Eltham tunnel on the bridge over the South Circular junction and before the Kidbrooke Junction.
At that time of day everyone who lives/works in that area knows that stretch of road is congested at the best of times and with it being only two lanes with no hard shoulder the emergency vehicles would have no chance of getting through, thats why I found it unbelievable they went the route they did.
At least there were no flowers at the scene on the way home so he wasn't killed but the paramedic being called must have meant it was pretty serious.
At that time of day everyone who lives/works in that area knows that stretch of road is congested at the best of times and with it being only two lanes with no hard shoulder the emergency vehicles would have no chance of getting through, thats why I found it unbelievable they went the route they did.
At least there were no flowers at the scene on the way home so he wasn't killed but the paramedic being called must have meant it was pretty serious.
Aaaah makes more sense now, I was thinking southbound towards the 25. Yeah that is a bit suprising but I guess for the reasons some have suggested. It would be a frickin nightmare closing the whole road.
Shocked by the 40 mins though.
From experience things have been far better planned. The ambulance station is only just down the road too.
How long til sirens were heard, and you knew they were actually stuck in traffic?
16 October 2007, 09:35 PM
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Well I saw the police fly past me in the other direction about 5-10 minutes after I started queueing, then by the time I was down the slip road and almost level with the accident I heard the sirens turn up from behind me some 30 minutes after I started queueing. Thats a long time for that bloke to have been lying on cold tarmac badly injured (which I assume he was with a paramedic called as well as an ambulance). Poor bloke must have wondered after about 10 minutes where the hell his ambulance was!
17 October 2007, 09:16 AM
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Ironic or what, believe this may have been my mate !!!
Even more ironic.... he just bought a scooby !
He is ok, I will try and get him to say hi.
Say hello John
Even more ironic.... he just bought a scooby !
He is ok, I will try and get him to say hi.
Say hello John
17 October 2007, 09:26 AM
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From what I can understand, one from the underpowered bike brigage aka muppet moped rider, hit my friend from behind after failing to brake in time, knocking them both off.
Sadly John's hand fell victim to the lorry behind.
The moped rider had a broken leg.
In John's words...
i was hit from behind by a **** on a scooter. we both came off. i got hit by a 7.5 ton lorry that run my hand over. jamie(**** scooter rider) broke his leg coming off his scooter. took ambulance over an hour to get there.
he cried like a girl...I had a ***
Sadly John's hand fell victim to the lorry behind.
The moped rider had a broken leg.
In John's words...
i was hit from behind by a **** on a scooter. we both came off. i got hit by a 7.5 ton lorry that run my hand over. jamie(**** scooter rider) broke his leg coming off his scooter. took ambulance over an hour to get there.
he cried like a girl...I had a ***
17 October 2007, 10:18 AM
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it was me...
Hi, I was involved in this accident. i was travelling to work on my fazer as usual. as we approached the Catford/Lewisham 205 junction the traffic slowed quite suddenly...happens all the time. i slowed to around 25-30 mph...then there was a huge bang from behind, then me and my fazer went for a slide. i managed to stop myself from going under the 7.5 ton lorry full of chocolate..but not my hand, that went under the wheels!...OUCH! the guy on the scooter (Jamie) who had run into the back of me broke his leg and was the one laying in the road. At this point i would like to thank the people who helped us, including the ambulance crew who in their defence were sent towards the blackwall tunnel past the junction we were at. it did take them over an hour to find us, but as i said not really their fault, they had to fight RUSH HOUR traffic both ways to get to us and had a not very specific location. I saw Jamie in the hospital and he seemed fine...no hard feelings mate...he said sorry and accidents do happen!! Im a bit banged about and a very sore hand but overall not bad considering... Well im now off work and on some real good pain killers, so sorry if this doesn't make alot of sense, but you get the gist.
I THINK THE EMERGENCY SERVICES DO A FANTASTIC JOB!! THANKS TO THEM ALL!!
I THINK THE EMERGENCY SERVICES DO A FANTASTIC JOB!! THANKS TO THEM ALL!!
17 October 2007, 10:31 AM
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Im just gutted that i cant fit my reverse air scoop and de cat downpipe on my scooby...oh and that i cant roll a ***! hope to see some of you scooby owners soon.... when i can drive again!
thanks, John ( THINK BIKE )
thanks, John ( THINK BIKE )
small World indeed, and most importantly glad no one was seriously injured. An hours response time (not the ambulance drivers fault) for what could have been life and death had you gone under the wheel just doesn't bare thinking about.
17 October 2007, 11:36 AM
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Ello Johnny boy, small world, I cant get away from the bloke. lol
Glad your ok mate, you and your bike + lorries is a bad combination or what!
Where was it last time, Brompton Road lol
Nice that there are no hard feelings, in the old days you would have had an hour jumping on Jamie's leg no doubt.
Good to hear what happened exactly, and goes to show that the response time was really not the fault of the EMS, just bad luck with the people calling the accident in, getting the location slightly wrong
Catch up soon matey, and of course... welcome to SN and scooby ownership (even though you said they were **** lol)
Glad your ok mate, you and your bike + lorries is a bad combination or what!
Where was it last time, Brompton Road lol
Nice that there are no hard feelings, in the old days you would have had an hour jumping on Jamie's leg no doubt.
Good to hear what happened exactly, and goes to show that the response time was really not the fault of the EMS, just bad luck with the people calling the accident in, getting the location slightly wrong
Catch up soon matey, and of course... welcome to SN and scooby ownership (even though you said they were **** lol)
08 July 2010, 11:19 AM
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Sorry to bring a post up from so far back, just remembered this thread.
Just had some sad news that apparently John was not so lucky this time, and died yesterday in another road traffic accident.
Feel like I have lost a brother, and have a piece of me missing right now. So rest in peace John.
Sorry to sn for being a sentimental old fool.
Just had some sad news that apparently John was not so lucky this time, and died yesterday in another road traffic accident.
Feel like I have lost a brother, and have a piece of me missing right now. So rest in peace John.
Sorry to sn for being a sentimental old fool.
Hi, I was involved in this accident. i was travelling to work on my fazer as usual. as we approached the Catford/Lewisham 205 junction the traffic slowed quite suddenly...happens all the time. i slowed to around 25-30 mph...then there was a huge bang from behind, then me and my fazer went for a slide. i managed to stop myself from going under the 7.5 ton lorry full of chocolate..but not my hand, that went under the wheels!...OUCH! the guy on the scooter (Jamie) who had run into the back of me broke his leg and was the one laying in the road. At this point i would like to thank the people who helped us, including the ambulance crew who in their defence were sent towards the blackwall tunnel past the junction we were at. it did take them over an hour to find us, but as i said not really their fault, they had to fight RUSH HOUR traffic both ways to get to us and had a not very specific location. I saw Jamie in the hospital and he seemed fine...no hard feelings mate...he said sorry and accidents do happen!! Im a bit banged about and a very sore hand but overall not bad considering... Well im now off work and on some real good pain killers, so sorry if this doesn't make alot of sense, but you get the gist.
I THINK THE EMERGENCY SERVICES DO A FANTASTIC JOB!! THANKS TO THEM ALL!!
I THINK THE EMERGENCY SERVICES DO A FANTASTIC JOB!! THANKS TO THEM ALL!!
08 July 2010, 12:02 PM
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What even when there is no traffic on the side of the accident and you can close the other carriageway behind you (there were 3+ police vehicles)?
That doesn't go with the photos/video footage of when that biker was shot recently in Oxfordshire coming back from the Bulldog Bash.
That doesn't go with the photos/video footage of when that biker was shot recently in Oxfordshire coming back from the Bulldog Bash.
Maybe exactly the same is hampering the rest of the emergency services. You get the impression that the life of the person concerned takes second place to doing it all as proscribed and in the correct way to achieve those targets!
Les
08 July 2010, 12:14 PM
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Just getting more info in the story now and it would appear he died in a bike v lorry on the same road, but at the blackwall tunnel this time.
Not 100% on this yet.
Not 100% on this yet.
08 July 2010, 12:32 PM
#24
Sorry to bring a post up from so far back, just remembered this thread.
Just had some sad news that apparently John was not so lucky this time, and died yesterday in another road traffic accident.
Feel like I have lost a brother, and have a piece of me missing right now. So rest in peace John.
Sorry to sn for being a sentimental old fool.
Just had some sad news that apparently John was not so lucky this time, and died yesterday in another road traffic accident.
Feel like I have lost a brother, and have a piece of me missing right now. So rest in peace John.
Sorry to sn for being a sentimental old fool.
There was a point when I was doing alot of rush hour city commuting (mainly when I was at Uni and the Air-Con company ) that I considered taking the bike. But thought better of it due to the sheer number of numpties around during that time likely to take me out (and in Birmingham city centre and its outskirts that is more than your fair share of crap drivers outside of London and Bradford who probably learnt to drive oustide the UK and paid their brother to take their driving test. OK, I'm trying not to be cynical here, as there are also a load of people still driving their desks who are just as bad, they could be good driver if they weren't thinking about Gantt charts and stressing about what bulls**t they need to put in their next report, or the Mumsy wagons rushing to get thier kids to school, one mirrors aimed at face to check make up, and the other aimed at the kids in the back. Or the Girlies with their pink steering wheel covers, some attrocious boy band (too many to list) or Euro-dance-pop rubbish (like Cascada) or Fart FM (adverts included) on radio at full blast (so loud the weedy amp clips the bass, making it sound even worse), whilst texting Shaz about her shoes. Then we have the mopeds, blinkered vision and shortsighted, who forget they have 2ft of bike behind them and cut infront of cars/HGV/anything leaving inches to spare then braking hard due to the stationary traffic infront then seem suprised when the following vehicle smashes into the back of them. Or the hardcore cylicsts "in the Zone", iPod on, running redlights and filtering past traffic at 20mph, then giving the bird to a car innocently pulling out of a blind junction which nearly collected them on the bonnet (did I miss any other stereotype?
)Still doesn't help the others who brave it and become another victim
Last edited by ALi-B; 08 July 2010 at 12:42 PM. Reason: missed a few sterotypes
08 July 2010, 12:42 PM
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Indeed mate the roads are a dangerous place these days. Especially for bikers.
Still not 100% on my facts yet, but pretty sure.
This is the 3rd big accident he had, first was round Chelsea, knocked off by someone opening a car door, and thrown under a 3.5 toners back wheels, lucky escape that time.
Next was the accident this thread was initially about, and now a combo of the same road, and this time a lorry has taken him from us.
According to people local, the air ambulance was on scene, which would suggest he didn't die immediately, which I'm not sure is good or bad. But as long as there was no suffering.
RIP John, however you went, it was way too soon.
Still not 100% on my facts yet, but pretty sure.
This is the 3rd big accident he had, first was round Chelsea, knocked off by someone opening a car door, and thrown under a 3.5 toners back wheels, lucky escape that time.
Next was the accident this thread was initially about, and now a combo of the same road, and this time a lorry has taken him from us.
According to people local, the air ambulance was on scene, which would suggest he didn't die immediately, which I'm not sure is good or bad. But as long as there was no suffering.
RIP John, however you went, it was way too soon.
Thats tragic
There was a point when I was doing alot of rush hour city comuting (mainly when I was Uni and the Air-Con company ) that I considered taking the bike. But thought better of it due to the sheer number of numpties around during that time likely to take me out (and in Birmingham city centre and its outskirts that is more than your fair share of crap drivers outside of London and Bradford who probably learnt to drive oustide the UK and paid their brother to take their driving test. OK, I'm trying not to be cynical here, as there are also a load of people still driving their desks who are just as bad, they could be good driver if they weren't thinking about Gantt charts and stressing about what bulls**t they need to put in their next report, or the Mumsy wagons rushing to get thier kids to school, one mirrors aimed at face to check make up, and the other aimed at the kids in the back. Or the Girlies with their pink steering wheel covers, some attrocious boy band (too many to list) or Euro-dance-pop rubbish (like Cascada) or Fart FM (adverts included) on radio at blast, whilst texting Shaz about her shoes (did I miss any other stereotype? ).
Still doesn't help the others who brave it and become another victim
There was a point when I was doing alot of rush hour city comuting (mainly when I was Uni and the Air-Con company ) that I considered taking the bike. But thought better of it due to the sheer number of numpties around during that time likely to take me out (and in Birmingham city centre and its outskirts that is more than your fair share of crap drivers outside of London and Bradford who probably learnt to drive oustide the UK and paid their brother to take their driving test. OK, I'm trying not to be cynical here, as there are also a load of people still driving their desks who are just as bad, they could be good driver if they weren't thinking about Gantt charts and stressing about what bulls**t they need to put in their next report, or the Mumsy wagons rushing to get thier kids to school, one mirrors aimed at face to check make up, and the other aimed at the kids in the back. Or the Girlies with their pink steering wheel covers, some attrocious boy band (too many to list) or Euro-dance-pop rubbish (like Cascada) or Fart FM (adverts included) on radio at blast, whilst texting Shaz about her shoes (did I miss any other stereotype?
).Still doesn't help the others who brave it and become another victim
08 July 2010, 01:54 PM
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Indeed mate the roads are a dangerous place these days. Especially for bikers.
Still not 100% on my facts yet, but pretty sure.
This is the 3rd big accident he had, first was round Chelsea, knocked off by someone opening a car door, and thrown under a 3.5 toners back wheels, lucky escape that time.
Next was the accident this thread was initially about, and now a combo of the same road, and this time a lorry has taken him from us.
According to people local, the air ambulance was on scene, which would suggest he didn't die immediately, which I'm not sure is good or bad. But as long as there was no suffering.
RIP John, however you went, it was way too soon.
Still not 100% on my facts yet, but pretty sure.
This is the 3rd big accident he had, first was round Chelsea, knocked off by someone opening a car door, and thrown under a 3.5 toners back wheels, lucky escape that time.
Next was the accident this thread was initially about, and now a combo of the same road, and this time a lorry has taken him from us.
According to people local, the air ambulance was on scene, which would suggest he didn't die immediately, which I'm not sure is good or bad. But as long as there was no suffering.
RIP John, however you went, it was way too soon.
You probably know that I am a biker as well and I am very sorry to hear about John's accident. I fully realise how upsetting that will be to you.
I still enjoy my biking and have learned to double check everything before I do whatever it is on the road. The risk is always there though. These things are always an object lesson.
Les
08 July 2010, 02:06 PM
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I have only just realised how long ago this thread was first started Snazy. I thought it had all just happened. You are right of course, the roads are dangerous these days especially for a biker.
You probably know that I am a biker as well and I am very sorry to hear about John's accident. I fully realise how upsetting that will be to you.
I still enjoy my biking and have learned to double check everything before I do whatever it is on the road. The risk is always there though. These things are always an object lesson.
Les
You probably know that I am a biker as well and I am very sorry to hear about John's accident. I fully realise how upsetting that will be to you.
I still enjoy my biking and have learned to double check everything before I do whatever it is on the road. The risk is always there though. These things are always an object lesson.
Les
As tragic as it is, like I say, I know he always said he would go out with a bang, and that he has. Sadly it's us left with the pain, but that's how life goes eh.
Lost too many friends on bikes now, so please ride safely, EVERYONE!
Thanks for all the replies.
08 July 2010, 04:17 PM
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That's terrible Snazy and very sorry to hear that. It is the very reason I gave up biking after 15 years of riding as I was doing 20k a year travelling every day through the Blackwall Tunnel in all weathers and had just too many scary moments to continue doing it. I honestly felt my luck wouldn't last forever.
R.I.P. John
R.I.P. John