RussBoy

As some of you may know I fulfilled a dream just over a year ago and sold everything I owned in the UK and moved lock, stock and barrel with my wife to Southern Spain where I now run my own business.

Having been here a year now and having started getting used to the Spanish way of life has prompted my thinking. There is a system here whereby anybody can place what is known as a 'Denuncia' on another person or entity (business etc.) Basically a Denuncia is a statement made at a Police station saying you denounce that certain person or something for a particular reason. It doesn't necessarily have to be a legal issue and could include civil matters - noisy music, dogs barking etc.

The Police are then obliged to act, where possible, in investigating the denouncia. Obviously the more denouncias against one person the more likelihood or police involvement. One recent high profile cases involved the Mayor of Marbella being arrested and eventually jailed for high scale corruption - this was brought about after an investigation was started after a 'friend' issued a denouncia against him claiming he had cheated in a poker game!

The Spanish authorities have a bit more flexibility than the British police and quite often sort problems out on the spot but I wondered if a similar kind of system in the UK wouldn't help with issues which affect many people - anti social neighbours, corrupt 'fly by night' businesses etc. It seems to work here and crime is about 25% of the UK, perhaps because the police know 'who's who' because of the denouncia system (it's not unsual to see Police hawl known offenders out of cars and have them searched etc. in full view of everyone...). The UK has ASBO's of course but these are enforcable whereby a denouncia is really something the guy in the street can instruct should he/she so wish (rather than waiting for a court to decide on a course of action).

I thought this would be an interesting debate for you scoobynetters - would a denouncia system help tackle anti social behaviour in particular, and would this facilitate a 2 tier level of policing whereby the lower level addresses day to day issues like the denouncias and the higher level tackles proper crime?

I thought I'd just share my idea anyway...!



Russ

Leslie

I think it is all wrong to encourage people to snitch on others. Its the sort of thing which was encouraged in the USSR and also by the occasional council in this country as well as the police.

It is open to all sorts of misuse exactly as the Rep system proved to be. It would be a danger to whatever kind of society spirit that we still have left in this country.

Les

Pedro_79

Sounds suspiciously like a certain, now-defunct rep system

SJ_Skyline

More like the RTM function although that's ignored anyway

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

don't you call them ASBOs in England! and aren't they classed as merit badges by the wearer???

As for snitching on your neighbour, it is encouraged here and they don't bat an eyelid at stitching each other up. Plus as it is all done annonymously no one is any the wiser.

Nido

Russ,

I also live in Spain (few hours up the coast from you) and think the Poilce system here is superb - the Denuncia system is obviously part of that. However I don't think the system of policing here could ever work in the UK, the human rights act would see to that.

A denuncia only really works if you are worried by the potential ramifications, and the subsequent police "interest" as you say (hauled out of your car every day etc) - and for that to work you need "respect" for the Police force(s) in the first place. In the UK there doesn't seem to be much of that, and whenever the Police do something they fall foul of the bloody human rights act anyway There aren't many people here in Spain who don't "respect" the Police - they may not like them but they don't mess with them (or thier guns!).

Only the other day the Police caught somebody attacking a woman a few miles away from where I live. They gave him a right kicking No "community order" or any sh1te like that A few months back somebody was fleeing a robery scene as the cops turned up (Guardia Civil), he didn't stop running when challenged so they shot him. Sounds fair enough to me, a bit more of that in the UK and it might not be in the state it is at the moment

Brendan Hughes

Oddly, the British police are one of very few in the world who DON'T have a 2-tier level - most have a civil force and a paramilitary force. I forget the historical reasons why.

As above, sounds a lot like the late rep system, and sounds equally open to abuse and corruption.

When you say crime is 25%, have you included low-level corruption in that figure?

RussBoy

Hi Mate,

You're right - it's too late for this to work in the UK now and the 'respect' )or lack of) thing for the authorities is a biggie. I **** myself everytime I get stopped here and if they don't like you, they will may your life hell (I'm in the mountains so the Policia and CG know exactly who's who, who's doing what etc...). That said, when stopped by La Policia (as opposed to CG), they are extremely polite and respectful.

Similar forms of justice here too, and it takes me back to the 70's growing up in Brixton when the cops dealt with problems as or when they arose, none of this polictical correctness then...but then poeple look out for one another here and I think that's where it all needs to start...


Russ

P.S Where are you - Almeria way?

Leslie

I would not want to live in a society full of grasses.

Les

Jonno_johnson

100% Agree.

sociophobe

Yeah, we dont need grasses as HMG knows all they need to know about us. Fool.

Nido

Varies with work, usually to be found somewhere between Cartagena and Valencia

The few times I have been in contact with the Guardia Civil I have found them to fine

Got pulled a few months back for riding up the inside of slow moving traffic whilst I was in the "ped lane" (or hard shoulder ) and he let me off, just usual paperwork check. As always you treat them with respect and they'll be ok

NotoriousREV

The denunicia system is a load of crap. My mum lives in Tenerife with my 2 younger brothers and my youngest sister. Away from the tourist areas there is a lot of resentment against tourists and particularly the British. Even though my brothers have lived there since they were 6 months old and speak Spanish as their first language, they are still considered outsiders by a lot of the locals and have had denuncia's against them on many occasions. Once was for knocking down a fence (the fence was found lying on it's side following a storm) and once for vandalising the local church (while they were at my house here in England!). If your face doesn't fit, they can be used to hound you out.

Leslie

Would you mind explaining yourself Sociophobe.

Les

Shark Man

I denounce you!

Seriously, if you don't care, it means squat.

A decent (Spanish) person is brought up with very high social morals and standards (unlike many ex-pat Brits, may I add) and will take a denuncia VERY seriously. However, if your a low down scally with no moral values who has nothing to lose, it doesn't mean squat.

Also, the Guardia Civil are folkes you don't want to mess with, trust me Contrast to our UK bobbys who have their hands tied by Human rights and "Community Policing" which seems more like making friendly banter with known criminals but turn a death ear to any good honest person with a problem.

RussBoy

Precisely right on all counts. A Denouncia means **** all, but it would **** off a good guy if he got one. And right again regarding the Guardia Civil, these guys don't mess about...

That's not how it works. Are you saying you've never called the Police? Or what if you knew a chav was dealing your kids drugs? <await heroic scoobynet response> - A denouncia 'can' make life difficult for these sorts of people, or at least bring them to the attention of the authorities. Don't forget the UK has grass escape routes - Crimestoppers and Crimewatch etc. whereby 'grassing' can be anon - denouncias aren't. And personally, I'd rather live in a nation of grasses if that's what it was, if it meant me and my family could walk the streets safely at night time.

For what it's worth, I'm not 100% for denouncias either as it happens, partly for reasons stated by NotoriousREV (i.e. it is racist here towards the British, especially in 'real' inland Spanish villages where I live) and I'll address these separate issues later this week in a separate thread...


Russ

Leslie

Looks like you just answered your own post Russboy!

Les

Flatcapdriver

The problem with 'denuncias' is that it is open to abuse, as you say, and has been used to settle petty inter family scores in the past particularly in Axarquia where you're likely to get denounced at the drop of a hat.

I had a situation where two old bags were used to taking a short cut through our garden and across my land to get to their own plot. One day, whilst sat out by the pool these two muppets came wandering down and physically stepped over me (on my sun lounger) to get past.

Whilst there is a 'right to roam' policy in force in Spain which allows access across land it does not extend to gardens. I lost the plot with these two and before I know it they are threatening to denounce me etc etc. So bloody what? Not being Spanish it means diddly squat to me as I don't 'respect' that system but as Russ points out to a decent law abiding Spaniard its a big problem. And that is the crux of the system - it works provided people respect it, if not it fails and on that basis I can't see it working in the UK.

Brendan Hughes

Sun loungers - lucky you. Plenty of stories in Portugal with Brits etc buying holiday homes in the Algarve, then finding they've been built on land traditionally used for hunting. The hunters take no notice of the new houses or owners. They go and confront the hunting party and get a 12-bore shoved in their face for their troubles - with a very clear "if you don't like it here, **** off back to your own country".

Jap2Scrap

I'm telling.

Flatcapdriver

That can happen in Spain but like most of Europe there are limitations as to how close to a dwelling you can discharge a firearm. In Spain its 500m and the UK around 70m - does the same not apply in Portugal?

Brendan Hughes

FCD, I'd imagine there are also laws about not shoving the barrel of a loaded firearm into someone's face and menacing them. Does that answer your question?

Flatcapdriver

RussBoy

Where was your house exactly FCD...I live in inland La Axarquia myself (near Competa)?


R