+Doc+

Why dont they make it compulsary from an early age?
With the wonders of modern technology I get to speak to a wide variety of foreign people over the internet.
The first thing that amazes me is the way the speak, type and understand our language far better than most English born and bred people do.
In my opinion we are well behind our European counterparts and languages must be pushed in school from an early age.
I have a daughter of 16 months and would love for her to ambrace a language from an early age.
Dora the explorer anyone?

Clarebabes

Dora the Explorer is too Americanised (-zed) so isn't great for us Brits who only speak Spanish when ordering an English breakfast on the Costs del Crime.

My 7 year old is now learning French at school, but she knows what they're learning anyway by going to France often enough. And it's only very basic words she's learning.

I agree. I think they should learn another language in schools from an early age. They would be able to take it in very easily too.

Brit_in_Japan

Unless it's changed in the past 10/20 years, teahcing foreign languages in the UK is handicapped by the fact that they don't teach English grammar properly at school. You take French classes and they'll explain about the different tenses, perfect, imperfect, past perfect, plu-perfect etc but if you haven't been taught what that grammar is in English then in it makes it more difficult to learn the French equivalent.

I had to take an English grammar test a few months ago (long story, considered becoming an Engish teacher in Japan) and I failed the grammar test! I was given a passage of text and asked to identify 40 different examples of different words or grammatical contruct. I got an A grade in my English Language O' Level, yet I failed the test miserably. It was very humbling.

It wasn't a case of forgetting what I'd learned at school, I was simply never taught English Language in such a structured way. I think my English is pretty good, but I can't explain what constructs I use or why.

For example, do you know what a pronoun is? OK, give examples of:-
1) an indefinite pronoun
2) an interrogative pronoun

Give example of a simile as opposed to a metaphor.

Adjectives are easy? Give an example of:-
3) a possessive adjective
4) an indefinite adjective

I'm not really expecting anyone to give answers to these questions, they're just examples of how little English grammar has been taught in schools in the last 30 years. If we don't understand our mother tongue, it makes it harder to learn foreign languages IMHO. Unless they start teaching English grammar in a more structured way, foreign language proficiency in the UK is always going to lag behind our overseas neighbours.

Leslie

Thats a good point from B-in-J, they have to teach English first of all. It is a sign of our failure in languages when you see how well foreign children do speak English.

Les

Hoppy

Yes, good point from B-in-J. But, I have spent my life as a working journalist and right now I would fail that test for sure. So what does that say? I think that like B-in-J I would pass if I spent a day actually learning what those terms meant - I've just never been taught them!

But would that help me? I say probably not. There is a lot wrong with how English is taught but there are more important problems than knowing about interrogative pronouns, as anyone familiar with ScoobyNet must know. Some posters on here have such bad English that their message is hard to understand, sometimes impossible and often ambiguous.

Language is about clear, efficient communication. That must be achieved, but how much further should you have to go? How many people on here know the difference between there, their and they're? Many do not, but if the meaning is clear, does it really matter? So before we all start learning foreign languages, maybe we should get our basic English sorted.

I have mixed views on learning foreign languages. Which ones? French, no matter how fluent, won't help you in important emerging markets like India. German - not much use in Brazil or China. Italian, Spanish, Dutch, ditto. On the other hand, overseas students have no such difficulty - learn English and you can get by in 75% of the planet, and 95% of the countries that matter.

Which prompts a completely opposite philosophy: it would be more efficient and generally beneficial if no foreign languages were taught in our schools. It would release more time to learn our mother tongue to a proficient standard, while indirectly encouraging more global knowledge of English.

Richard.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Teaching a foreign language from age 7 or below is a great idea, and should allow kids to learn another language as they do English, by using it.

The disappointment will come in the secondary schools, where apathy on the part of government has led to a distinct lack of MFL teachers, apathy on the part of kids has led to them switching off and they can't be arsed to do the work necessary, and apathy on the part of government, schools and parents has led to the schools being unable to enforce learning on kids.

I used to have a very good friend who taught German and French up here in the North Midlands. He eventually moved back to the south where he said MFLs were valued, unlike up here, where your average kid either can't, or won't see the value of another language.

After all, as the first poster said, people from other countries speak good English. So kids think, why should they bother learning another language?

Alcazar

Hoppy

Just pursuing this for a minute, why should they learn another language? What tangible benefits are there? Would the (very substantial) time and effort not be better spent on other subjects?

Another recent thread debated the loss of jobs overseas, eg to call centres in India. The fact that the international language of business is English gives us a very useful competitive advantage - time to learn other, more beneficial, business skills.

Richard.

Brit_in_Japan

I understand what you say Hoppy. I wasn't taught Enginsh grammar in any detail and yet I believe my English is pretty good and have no problem communicating in English. However I cannot explain to Japanese friends why certain English constructs are correct and some are incorrect. All I can say is "it just is".

I do think that the lack of English grammer knowledge does handicap up when learning foreign languages. Is that important? Well it depends on what level of interaction/communication you want with people from other countries.

If you do business with a company from overseas, it helps enormously if you can (or at least try) to communicate with them in their native language. It helps to build business relationships and helps to give them confidence that your company really understands what their needs are.

English is the global language of business, but outside the big companies you find that there is less proficiency in foreign languages. If your foreign competitors speak the language of your target customer and you don't, they have a big advantage. Ultimately business deals are made between individuals. Put yourself in their shoes and ask yourself this question, if you want to do business with an overseas company and you talk to representatives of two companies, are you more likely to do business with the company whose representatives speak poor English, or the one you can communicate with easily and which give you confidence that they understand what you need?

And different countries have different business cultures, I can testify to that living in Japan. If you show cultural awareness and can communicate with them in their own language, you are far more likely to win new business. So I think language proficiency is really important. In Japan, Chinese language study has overtaken every other foreign language except English. So who will be in a better position to do business with China, Japan or the UK?

Brendan Hughes

Utterly disagree. Language is also about culture. One of the most telling things can be to read another country's joke book; once you've done it you realise that the Russians mainly tell jokes about being unfaithful, the Italians mainly tell jokes about St Peter, and the French and Dutch mainly tell jokes about the Belgians But seriously, language is a lot more than about talking.

And why should an asian be "forced" to learn English, as the English can't be bothered to learn their languages, when their real chance of trading success comes with their neighbours rather than somewhere halfway round the world?

There is no need to ask which one. Children already make choices at 14 about whether to drop history, geography, music - they are quite able also to make the choice about whether to drop French, German or Spanish. And if they had a bit more guidance about the Romance and Anglo-Saxon roots, they'd realise that one can be the gateway to various others; French will make Spanish and Italian easier, for example, but won't really help you with German or Russian.

The British and the Americans are arrogant and xenophobic enough without encouraging them further. Even now, anyone who many Brits can't understand is instantly assumed to be stupid, even if they may have a PhD compared to our lovely MacDonalds staff who are judging them. Just reading NSR should teach you that.

There is no way it would be generally beneficial if no foreign languages were taught. I agree with your idea that English should be taught to a higher standard than now, but absolutely not at the expense of other languages.

Hoppy

Good point BiJ, and I couldn't agree more about how important personal relationships are as part of the business dynamic, and language as an essential part of that, but in practise that language is always English. I have done a lot of international business and never needed to use anything except English. One of my colleagues spent several years in France and speaks/writes French to a high standard, but guess what language is used when we deal with our French subsidiary - bloody English! How daft is that. Or how sensible is that?

My question is really where should we put the emphasis in education in order to gain business competitive advantage in a world that is clearly moving away from Western Europe and the USA, towards Asia. I say, since everybody else speaks English, then let's use the large amount of time and effort it takes to master a foreign tongue, to learn some more advantageous skill. Like Asian cultures, religions and politics maybe, but not language.

However, if you were then to say to me, learn Mandarin or maybe Hindi, I think I could be pursuaded to support that but French or German is just a waste of time. And it would be a brave headteacher that made Mandarin a compulsory part of the curriculum - I can't see it being much of a vote winner, either. So actually, we're very hypocritical about the whole thing, too!

What I find really works well is when overseas companies get in a good English speaker to help oil the wheels of communication. Selfish, but true. Maybe we should be doing this, too. Certainly, very soon graduates with a degree in Mandarin and Chinese culture will be able to name any salary they like.

Richard.

davegtt

Sit and think about this for a minute, If the English go out of their way and learn say Spanish, what good is it to the majority of us? Its pretty pointless unless you go to a spanish orientated country. Anywhere else in Europe and Spanish is useless, same with French etc etc...

For many nations English is a second language learned by many and in that respect were quite lucky that we dont need to go and learn other languages. English is good for Spanish to talk to the French etc etc... Its not our fault its like that and we shouldnt be called arrogant for it. Its not a matter of "cant be bothered" more to do with whats the point.

Hoppy

Brendan - crossed posts. I thought someone might disagree!

But my pitch is purely a pragmatic business one. I am not for one moment suggesting that learning foreign languages, and generally indulging in foreign culture, is not an entirely good thing. It is something I intend to do more of in my approaching dotage, but it is a different thing.

Example: I work in international magazine publishing, and have regular dealings in France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Holland and Scandanavia, China, India, Dubai and UAE, Russia, Poland, Greece, Brazil, Mexico - there's incidental business in many other territories but I don't need to go on. 95% of my business is by email in English, or by mobile phone, in English, or face to face, in English. The other 5% is when I have to get something translated to understand - in English.

So which languages should I learn? It's an impossible question and even if I was to try, my international colleagues would quite quickly say "can we please converse in English because your Russian/Italian/Arabic/Mandarin is crap compared to our English."

What is an infinitely better use of my time is to understand the different international cultures, business environments and politics, so that I know how best to work together. Dubai and Holland are utterly diverse, China is unique, Russia is an intersting mix (read chaos) and so on. Actually speaking the lingo is a complete waste of my time and theirs.

So which languages should be taught at school? Life in the affluent (arrogant and xenophobic) west is getting harder, and quickly. Understanding Asia is a priority - not that we'll do anything about it but that's another story. Learning French, German, Spanish or even Latin is a laudable, stimulating and rewarding academic excercise, but in practical terms it won't even help you buy an ice-cream on holiday.

Best regards,

Richard.

carl

Foreign languages aren't even compulsory for GCSE now (it's changed with this year's year 9 classes who are choosing their options).

Hoppy

Check this thread to see where the problem lies:

http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=496381

Richard.

ScoobyDoo555

As has been said, let's have the majority language taught properly first, otherwise we're running before we can walk.....

Shame, as at school, I learnt English, French & German. Even know a bit of Arabic and Italian due to a very fortunate growing-up....
My kids WILL have the same opportunities, which I hope will open more doors for them, however, they probably won't get that knowledge from school.


Dan

Brit_in_Japan

Hi Hoppy(Richard)
It is true that English will be the default language of business in the majority of cases. But there are times when your customer or potential customer speaks no English. In South America you really need Spanish and/or Portuguese.

I had a problem last year where my customer spoke no English and I spoke poor Japanese. Although I had colleagues providing a translation service, I found it very frustrating that I could not correspond directly with my customer (I was project manager). I was never able to establish a good working relationship with the customer and the cultural difference between Japan-Europe/US meant we fell into some tar pit along the way. Japanese is not a very exact language, there is a lot of inference and they dance around what they really mean. If you have sufficient language skill, you pick up on what they want and you can keep them happy. My project went pear-shaped, partly due to miscommunication of requirements.

To give kids a better chance of learning new languages in later life, it helps if they have a good grounding in grammar and their own language to start with. I think there are statistics which show that bi-lingual children in Wales who get taught through the medium of Welsh, have higher language proficiencies in other languages when they get to secondard school.

As for learning Mandarin, that is a very serious undertaking, serveral years hard work if you have a flair for languages. It might be that the best way forward in many cases is simply to recruit native Chinese and make sure their English skills are up to it.

Hoppy

Hello BinJ,

I think you have suggested a very good compromise position - the learning of English grammar to a high standard is an excellent grounding, and not too difficult. That will be an excellent spring-board to any European language, which is a good foundation for more difficult tongues, probably in further education.

It is ironic to be having this debate, since my foreign language skills are so feeble. I am the black sheep of the family in that sense, as my father was a Fellow of Cambridge University teaching Arabic, and my brother is a foreign language Professor - one of very few people in the world that can (and has) read the Dead Sea Scrolls.

And I know what they would say about learning languages: a) do it, and b) start with Latin. I am just young enough to have missed Latin at school; probably my loss ultimately.

Best regards,

Richard.

pslewis

If MFL Teachers could inspire the kids more to WANT to learn another language then they would not desert it in such large numbers in Year9 (option year).

The reason that MFL is not being supported by Government anymore in Schools is because of the complete and utter lack of enthusiasm from the kids to want to learn it!

And I, personally, would rather a child did - say - Biology rather than a Language and achieved at something they actually WANT to do!

Parents can enrol their kids onto language courses whenever they like ...

Pete

Bram

Pete, the schools did not learn the first crucial point in education, they forced it down the throat of kids here in Scotland, they had to do a language as part of there choices in third year.

End result, they hated it and never learnt it and a wasted time of a class when they could have chose a subject they wanted to learn.

ScoobyDoo555

Partial truth there Pete.

Yes, that is ONE of the factors, but the main factor (IMHO) is that due to Government policies, schools are effectively training the kids to get through the GCSEs - therefore, there is no incentive for the schools to encourage the kids (as a general subject).

The "training for exams" is a definite truth, as virtually all the post 16-yr olds who end up in college HAVE to take KeySkills (additional qualifications in IT, English/Comms & Maths/Numerecy).
This effectively overrides the GCSE grades. I spend most of my first term filling in the HUGE gaps in the kids education, including the basic 3 "r's".......
And my students HAVE to acheive a minimum of 4 GCSEs @ C or above to qualify for my course. To put it bluntly, I get the "cream of the crop" including those who don't go to 6th Form.

But yes, we agree (I think!) - foreign language policy in (most) schools is virtually non-existant. The only way round this (at the moment) is to go down the private lesson route.

Dan

pslewis

Up until last year a Language was compusary from Year 9 ... it is now an option (very few children take it up) - which is EXACTLY my point - if the MFL Departments made it a pleasure in years 7 and 8 (where it IS still compulsary) then more would continue to do it.

Pete