ProperCharlie

A certain employee put me in an extremely embarrassing position with a client this week, and also betrayed my trust in a way that was visible to several other employees. Then, the next day he didn't show for work but instead sent a message via another employee that he would like to take the rest of the week off as holiday!

So there's no doubt about it, this no good piece of shi... I mean member of staff has to go. So I phone up our "employment law advisors" about how to terminate this guy's employment. Their response:

advisor: When is x coming back to work?
me: How do I know? Never if I've got anything to do with it.
advisor: You need to write to him asking him to let you know when he is going to come back. It would be best if you could hand deliver the letter to his house this evening.
me: So what do I do after that?
advisor: Well once he has contacted you and let you know when he'll be back in work, contact us again and we'll give you further advice.

So I have to run around after this bloke to find out if he's going to grace us with his presence any time soon, and then I can get "further advice".

I think I could actually do without "advice" of this nature. Really, I'd rather just leave a message on his mobile (he's not answering it )telling him he's sacked and take my chances at an ET.

davyboy

Hand deliver the letter.........???

ProperCharlie

Yeah - that seemed a bit of a pita to me. It eventually transpired that the last address we had been given wasn't his current place of abode, so I couldn't deliver anything to him, either by hand, post or carrier pigeon.

fast bloke

Just stop paying him and send a letter to the last address asking him to contact you - Nothing more you can do

R.B

Yep welcome to the con club.

We come across this now and again and its a complete fecking joke.

It will probably end up costing you money in the end.

R.B

hades

There are processes that need to be followed. I'm no great expert, but it sounds like your advisors aren't either. By my understanding, what you need to ascertain is whether he has committed a sufficient offense for instant dismissal (often gross misconduct - e.g. assaulting a member of staff, deliberately tampering with safety equipment etc, or other things depending on your T&Cs of employment). If it's "slightly lesser" misconduct (there'll be a proper term for it that I can't remember) there are disciplinary procedures you can follow. These will normally include verbal and written warnings, and the guy is generally entitled to union or other representation to support him when receiving/discussing these warnings.

Unless you've got very unusual T&C's I can't see that it is down to you to write to an employee to ask when his leave will finish. Most T&Cs I've seen say holiday should be taken "with the agreeement of both parties". Whilst that doesn't give an employer carte blanche to refuse all leave requests - they have to be "reasonable" - the employee usually needs to agree the period of leave with their line manager. Blatantly failing to comply with T&C's of employment to my mind constitutes grounds for disciplinary procedings (which might include instant dismissal)

Hope that helps a bit? As I said, I'm no employment law expert, but I try to understand the basics and when I need to seek advice.

camk

what is his length of service, less than 12 months and you cannot get unfair dismissal unless its for discrimination(race/sexual), if its less than 2 years then I'm pretty sure he's not entitled to redundancy.

camk

Essentially he's saying he will be back on Monday. You need to have a meeting with him and discuss each single issue in Turn. Explain the problems and seriousness of each offence.
Arrange a further disciplinary meeting with him later that week and he is entitled to bring a second person, you need to have a witness there too and ALL discussions need to be minuted and agreed by all parties. Advise him that based on the events of this week you need to look at Disciplinary action that could range from Verbal through Written Warnings to Dismissal

Look at each item in turn and discuss them with him, explain the problems and the breaches of trust. Hear him out, note his comments.

Take a break and decide what the seriousness of each offence is, then go back in and tell him the outcome and that he is entitled to an appeal.

Hear the appeal, he'll potentially bring a lawyer, minute the meeting and eithe uphold the decision or don't.

You have followed a process and allowed dialogue on the issues, you've had an appeal and you are sorted.

ProperCharlie

hades - I know there's a process; I'm trying to follow it but there are limits to my patience. As there are several years service I could end up in an ET if I don't do it properly.

The trouble is that it seems employment law is drafted imagining that everyone is dealing with reasonable people who work in offices and have all the time in the world for arranging a million and one meetings to discuss this that and the other about why someone did what they did. My attitude has become (through experience) that if someone jeopardises my livelihood and betrays my trust then they better get down the road.

Unfortunately the redundancy thing doesn't come into it as it's not a case of being made redundant - I will have to find a replacement for this employee.

ProperCharlie

camk - cheers

That is what I will have to do, I guess. Providing he does show up next week. It's all just a big waste of time, though, when everyone knows what the score really is.

Apparition

Sounds like he's wriggled out of the frame and is lying low until the dust has settled. He's hoping everything will be hunky dorey next Monday, and will swan back in like nothing has happened. He obviously ducked out quick enough so you couldn't give him the necessary verbal warning. I'd write him a warning letter and post it to whatever address you have for him, obviously keep a copy on file and when he comes smirking back saying "oh well I didn't receive it", you can produce said copy, after all, its not YOUR responsibility to follow your staff's every move at home re house moves etc.

camk

The process stuff is there to make sure any decisions are taken away from the heat of the moment and allow time for dialogue and explanation. The Alan Sugar 'You're Fired' on the spot type of management is no longer allowed

The redundancy option is a good alternative, you just need to be creative on the hiring side


Don't be too scarey at the first meeting, be cool, you just want a chat etc. The last thing you want is him going off sick, that just makes it a pain in the ****.

silver sonic

iTrader: (4)

give him the ****tiest jobs you can within his terms and conditions,
and basically make his day a nightmare ,but stay within his terms , till the ****** leaves !
but first give him verbals , then written about absenteeism!

mart360

we had some employees, who were not up to the grade,

despite training and working for a long period it was clear they would never cut the mustard.

after the third **** up they had produced ansd sent to the customer, costing in excess of 4K a time we had had enough and wanted to get rid of them...

you cant we were told, you have to go through the discaplinary process??

informal discussuion

verbal warning

written warning

final written warning..


WTF these numptys had cost the company in excess of 12k and done serious harm to our reputation,,, yet what beggars belief,

if they were late more than 3 times in a month ... dismissal!!!

is the same with the agency we use, we have to give them a weeks trial before telling them yes or no.... after thousands of stock being lost due to production errors, i told the agency they would either have to shorten the time to one day, or pick up the cost for the defective product...

there reply,, what do you expect for £5.75 an hour??

people who can build product i replied and dumped 3k,s worth of rejects on her desk...

we got the one day!!

M

rolyatescort

We've just got rid of a guy who was late at least once a week, often off 'sick', verbally abusive, non-productive and caused several thousand pounds worth of damage by dodgy driving (which we knew but couldn't 100% prove) and he then went on the long-term sick which was a cover up for him going on trial for another company. We could prove he was working for this other company and it still took us 2 months and 4 hand-delivered letters to get rid of him and even then he actually resigned of his own accord we couldn't sack him! The world has gone to hell.

MattN

To play devils advocate.

Mart360. If someone can't cut the mustard as you say it's not just the emploee's fault. At the end of the day You (by you I mean someone in your company) decided that this person was good enough for the job. If it turns out they are not you can't just fire them. If they are trying but simply cannot complete the tasks of the job they either need to be trained again or after discussing with the employee given a different role. It's as much your companies fault for employing someone who can't do the job as the employee themselves. Theres normally a probation period to, if they got through this then again it's your companies fault for not picking up on there weaknesses and rectifying them.

That said, if they lied about their abilities, fire them!


No help to PC though. Best of luck with it!!

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Oh try our place, f*ck up big style once a week, take 6 months out of the year sick, send aggressive emails, spout homophobia/racism and lie through your back teeth and still keep your job.

zxr750Nick

Try 'Frustration of contract'. This is a broad umbrella for having pissed you off big time, but his action would appear to constitute this.

Another tack
Check his expenese claims accurately. If he has so much as failed to have a VAT receipt completed for these then do him for gross misconduct namely breach of trust and confidence. I bet you WILL find something.
Another thought. If he uses a PC then check the temp internet folders for all the **** he has looked at. Bang to rights......

I deal with loads of this stuff and an 'alternative' approach may do the job.

Nick

Stueyb

F@ck me PC, where do you get your staff ? The numptie shop ?

carl

What you need to be doing is hiring freelancers instead of permies. Then all these problems go away

camk

only if you have them less than 12 months........

carl

That's a myth put about by agencies.

ProperCharlie

carl - I would love to have freelancers instead of PAYE staff. However, various conditions of contract prevent us from doing this.

camk

Carl,
Sorry experienced it personally......and was very real for us in Swindon office. Cost us a good few quid as the 'freelancer' was not paying his tax. IR came after the company for the tax. You need to meet very specific rules to be seen as a 'contractor' otherwise you are an employee after 12 months.

carl

OK, I'll leave this subject as it's thread drift...

camk

yes sorry guys ....just brought back very bad memories....

Diesel

This is why we have these silly rules - to protect employees from bully bosses!!!

Amend all contracts to include 3 warnings for timekeeping = gross misconduct; just get creative, but a little less nasty than Mr Silver above!!!

I have had to follow the procedure a few times and I find it fair - it avoids kneejerk bully sackings [and yes, I have been close to there]... If they are bad enough you will find 3 reasons over a short period of time.

D

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Please do NOT start me on the subject of so called "bosses"...



NOT a happy chappy at the moment & it is solely 'cos the "boss" I work for is uncapable of a) management & b) being reasonable & c) being able to understand a or b.

"IF" my employment status stays away from lawyers, it will not be because I am not being reasonable rather the opposite.

I'm too old & too experienced to get fecked about for f'all wages, treated like a door-mat & have to be expected to be puppy-dog grateful.



Something to be born in mind when looking at it from the other side. Be fair, take a good hard look at your side of the story, compare with the other side's story, swap places & try again.


Not saying there aren't people who take the P but look at things from both sides.


FWIW my company sacked 1 person today & nearly another, but it was because I was asked to intervene to calm a hot situation down that we didn't lose him. I would've saved the 1st person if I had been asked to get involved. What was this all over? Well nothing that 2 sides taking the time to reflect & act proactively/sensibly could not have sorted out.

My case? Well, I'm not having to deal with me, I've got 2 inexperienced directors instead

Job for me anyone?

PCatWork

Puff, tbh I think I have been TOO reasonable. I'm quite happy to do any of the jobs I ask people to do, I treat everyone with respect, I listen to every hard luck sob story that's ever been told, I turn a blind eye to the odd instances of lateness, over long lunch breaks, early departures etc etc. The result? A certain percentage of people think you are a mug and they can shaft you.

Unfortunately that's life. There are good and bad bosses, and good and bad employees.

Leslie

Can't believe that someone who is prepared to behave like that can be so difficult to kick into touch.

Seems to me that the contract should apply equally on both sides and it it is broken or the bloke is incapable or not prepared to do his job correctly then he should be disposed of in favour of someone who can and is prepared to do the job properly.

This man appears to have acted with total irresponsibility.

Les