Gun safety
14 March 2005, 08:40 PM
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Im not altogether sure what it was; but as the slide was locked then surely the magazine was empty, as a round would release it, would it not? This would imply that a round was placed into the breech making it deliberate rather than stupid; considering that his point was 'you have accidents with guns' this would make sense.
Simon (Sheffield Militia)
Simon (Sheffield Militia)
14 March 2005, 08:58 PM
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I guess it could well have been a "even a trained professional can have an accident" however, somehow I don't think it was his intention to harm himself.
14 March 2005, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mj
blank in the chamber to scare the kids
Originally Posted by mj
- not even americans are that stupid 
14 March 2005, 10:23 PM
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LOL @ "I am the only one in the room professional enough to handle this gun" 
Apart from obviously not checking the breech properly he broke 3 important rules:
1) Treated a gun as if it was unloaded
2) Handled it with his finger on the trigger
3) Pointed it in an unsafe direction
According to this:
http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=56868
Its a true video and he did actually blat himself in the leg with it too! He took it surprisingly well I thought!
Apart from obviously not checking the breech properly he broke 3 important rules:
1) Treated a gun as if it was unloaded
2) Handled it with his finger on the trigger
3) Pointed it in an unsafe direction
According to this:
http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=56868
Its a true video and he did actually blat himself in the leg with it too! He took it surprisingly well I thought!
14 March 2005, 10:33 PM
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The pressure from the muzzle can kill; I bet it hurt. I did reply to Markus but VBulletin went ****-up and lost it. Automatic pistols (usually) lock in the open position after ejecting the last spent case. When a magazine with at least one round is inserted its usual for the action to release and slide forward collecting the round and moving it to the chamber. This is why I assumed that his actions were (somewhat) deliberate because if the magazine was loaded; beside being too stupid to describe, the action would have released chambering the round when it was inserted: so I assume that a single blank was inserted into the chamber before the pistol was handed to him... But as I said in my lost reply, not all pistols operate in the same manner; for a start, not all models lock open on empty; perhaps he was a fool?
Simon (I learned this from TV because thats as close to a real gun as a politically-correct person should allow themselves to get...)
Simon (I learned this from TV because thats as close to a real gun as a politically-correct person should allow themselves to get...)
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14 March 2005, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ajm
LOL @ "I am the only one in the room professional enough to handle this gun"
Apart from obviously not checking the breech properly he broke 3 important rules:
1) Treated a gun as if it was unloaded
2) Handled it with his finger on the trigger
3) Pointed it in an unsafe direction
According to this:
http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=56868
Its a true video and he did actually blat himself in the leg with it too! He took it surprisingly well I thought!
Apart from obviously not checking the breech properly he broke 3 important rules:
1) Treated a gun as if it was unloaded
2) Handled it with his finger on the trigger
3) Pointed it in an unsafe direction
According to this:
http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=56868
Its a true video and he did actually blat himself in the leg with it too! He took it surprisingly well I thought!
Im not familiar with this model of Glock; but Im assuming that he took the safety off too, as Im sure that cycling the action will engage it... All highly unlikely.
Simon (Sheffield Militia)
14 March 2005, 10:44 PM
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You can lock the slide back at any time by pushing the slide release catch upwards as you draw the slide back. If there is no magazine inserted, or a magazine containing one round or more this is the only way to lock the slide back. As you say though, the most likely scenario is that there was a round in the breech all along, and the news reports seem to imply it wasn't a blank! It would have definitely hurt!
ajm (former pistol shooter before the sport was criminalised
)
ajm (former pistol shooter before the sport was criminalised
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14 March 2005, 10:48 PM
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I appreciate this Alex; it possible that the magazine had one or more rounds in, either blank or not; and that the slide was locked, although the rounds would be more readily visible which I assume he didnt want. Its impossible to know what the fool intended, I was trying to apply a little common sense to the problem; which is more than he did!
Simon (I never shot pistols Tony, you hear me, nutters the lot of them!)
Simon (I never shot pistols Tony, you hear me, nutters the lot of them!)
14 March 2005, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by GC8
Im not familiar with this model of Glock; but Im assuming that he took the safety off too, as Im sure that cycling the action will engage it... All highly unlikely.
Simon (Sheffield Militia)
Simon (Sheffield Militia)
14 March 2005, 10:53 PM
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It would seem he is guilty of overfamiliarity with guns. The "I'm so used to handling guns I can afford to be sloppy" attitude. I've seen negligent discharge reports involving soldiers and it makes scary reading. After inexperienced recruits, the people most likely to have accidents with guns are very experienced soldiers, especially ones that have been handling live rounds for some time, eg in Northern Ireland.
That someone who doesn't seem to practice the most basic of Normal Safety Precautions with weapons is teaching weapon safety to kids is extremely scary. At the ranges concerned he could have killed several people with one bullet. Absolute fecking idiot.
That someone who doesn't seem to practice the most basic of Normal Safety Precautions with weapons is teaching weapon safety to kids is extremely scary. At the ranges concerned he could have killed several people with one bullet. Absolute fecking idiot.
Last edited by Jerome; 14 March 2005 at 10:56 PM.
14 March 2005, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by GC8
How do you make it safe then? Is there a squeeze safety on it?
The only way to make them safe is to remove the mag, operate the slide to eject any remaining round from the breech and visually inspect the bore. The only way to release the hammer is to dry fire!
Personally I think they are ****e, because safety issues aside they are apallingly balanced, very flicky and completely inaccurate.... so it shouldn't surprise us that several UK police forces have started using them (model 17's)
14 March 2005, 11:11 PM
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I never 'got' the Glock thing; people seemed to be fascinated by their ability to pass through airport security screening; which they couldnt do; well the polymer frame could but that was all,: and their reputation just carried on growing. They seem to be favoured by 'gangstas' now as expemsive guns are 'bling'. Perhaps SO19 will be shooting 'gangsta-style' with the piece canted over 45 degrees too?
Id sooner depend on a SIG-Sauer; now theres a nice pistol...
Slim Simon
Id sooner depend on a SIG-Sauer; now theres a nice pistol...
Slim Simon
15 March 2005, 12:39 AM
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If you pay attention to: a) the audience and b) the Officers partner standing just out of camera shot to the right you would realise first of all that this is a demonstration by the police to junior school aged kids and as such is presented that way, hence the reason the officer says 'I'm the only one qualified to handle this gun etc....." he is trying to be entertaining to 9/10 year olds.
You will also notice that he did follow procedure correctly and got his partner to confirm that the chamber was clear (which it obviously wasn't). It was obviously a blank as a) if a live 9mm round went off in a small room like that those at the front would have suffered hearing damage and b) if a live round had been discharged into or near to his leg he certainly wouldn't be carrying on with the lecture and claiming that he wouldn't be able to talk about guns again (also look at the smiles coming from the parents faces near the back of the classroom!)
The scene was a deliberate ploy to show how easy it is to have an accident with a gun and is something the US Police take toa all schools... Thank Christ they don't need to do it in this country.
Ref the gun.... The Glock gained it's fame/reputation from the movie Die Hard 2, where the baddies got through security with a Glock 7!!! which was apparently ceramic so didn't set the alarms off!!!!!!! b@llocks... anyway who needs ceramic handguns (which don't exist)... you could probably get through security with any type of gun without much trouble! The Glock is the favoured weapon of the German Police and yes it does have a safety. The internal hammer can be released without discharging a round otherwise once cocked the weapon would not be able to be made safe. (I can't remember how it works though)
Inserting a magazine into a semi auto pistol does not automatically cycle the weapon, the slide release button needs to be pushed to do that (under left thumb on a right handed gun). Relasing the slide also chambers the first round automatically. The slide on all semi auto handguns automatically lock back after the last round is spent, thus speeding up reload time dramatically...
Out of interest the favoured weapon manufacturer of the UK special forces... RMP Close Protection (Queens bodyguard etc...) is Heckler & Kock, although those boys get to choose whatever they want as do quite a few of the Police armed response units. AFAIK the standard issue sidearm for the RMP hasn't changed since I was in and that is the trusty (crap) Browning 9mm.
Paul
(Ex RMP, Ex Sec 1 firearms licence holder and ex very proud Beretta 92FS owner!)
You will also notice that he did follow procedure correctly and got his partner to confirm that the chamber was clear (which it obviously wasn't). It was obviously a blank as a) if a live 9mm round went off in a small room like that those at the front would have suffered hearing damage and b) if a live round had been discharged into or near to his leg he certainly wouldn't be carrying on with the lecture and claiming that he wouldn't be able to talk about guns again (also look at the smiles coming from the parents faces near the back of the classroom!)
The scene was a deliberate ploy to show how easy it is to have an accident with a gun and is something the US Police take toa all schools... Thank Christ they don't need to do it in this country.
Ref the gun.... The Glock gained it's fame/reputation from the movie Die Hard 2, where the baddies got through security with a Glock 7!!! which was apparently ceramic so didn't set the alarms off!!!!!!! b@llocks... anyway who needs ceramic handguns (which don't exist)... you could probably get through security with any type of gun without much trouble! The Glock is the favoured weapon of the German Police and yes it does have a safety. The internal hammer can be released without discharging a round otherwise once cocked the weapon would not be able to be made safe. (I can't remember how it works though)
Inserting a magazine into a semi auto pistol does not automatically cycle the weapon, the slide release button needs to be pushed to do that (under left thumb on a right handed gun). Relasing the slide also chambers the first round automatically. The slide on all semi auto handguns automatically lock back after the last round is spent, thus speeding up reload time dramatically...
Out of interest the favoured weapon manufacturer of the UK special forces... RMP Close Protection (Queens bodyguard etc...) is Heckler & Kock, although those boys get to choose whatever they want as do quite a few of the Police armed response units. AFAIK the standard issue sidearm for the RMP hasn't changed since I was in and that is the trusty (crap) Browning 9mm.
Paul
(Ex RMP, Ex Sec 1 firearms licence holder and ex very proud Beretta 92FS owner!)
Last edited by Vipa; 15 March 2005 at 12:45 AM.
15 March 2005, 02:05 AM
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Vipa/Paul,
He was doing a very convincing impression of someone who had been injured.
You may be right, and it may have been a blank, but even blanks have a safety distance. Deliberately letting off even a blank in a classroom full of kids is an extremely reckless and dangerous way of teaching firearm safety. How could someone respect the word of someone who - apparently - can't practice what he is preaching.
Would you impressed with a driving instructor who crashes whilst demonstrating how to drive safely?
Jerome.
(Ex Infantry, Royal Engineers and ex Skill at Arms Instructor
)
He was doing a very convincing impression of someone who had been injured.
You may be right, and it may have been a blank, but even blanks have a safety distance. Deliberately letting off even a blank in a classroom full of kids is an extremely reckless and dangerous way of teaching firearm safety. How could someone respect the word of someone who - apparently - can't practice what he is preaching.
Would you impressed with a driving instructor who crashes whilst demonstrating how to drive safely?
Jerome.
(Ex Infantry, Royal Engineers and ex Skill at Arms Instructor
)
15 March 2005, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Vipa
You will also notice that he did follow procedure correctly and got his partner to confirm that the chamber was clear (which it obviously wasn't). It was obviously a blank as a) if a live 9mm round went off in a small room like that those at the front would have suffered hearing damage and b) if a live round had been discharged into or near to his leg he certainly wouldn't be carrying on with the lecture and claiming that he wouldn't be able to talk about guns again (also look at the smiles coming from the parents faces near the back of the classroom!)
http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breakin...0313-2463r.htm
The Glock is the favoured weapon of the German Police and yes it does have a safety.
The internal hammer can be released without discharging a round otherwise once cocked the weapon would not be able to be made safe. (I can't remember how it works though)
15 March 2005, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Vipa
Out of interest the favoured weapon manufacturer of the UK special forces... RMP Close Protection (Queens bodyguard etc...) is Heckler & Kock,
Originally Posted by Vipa
although those boys get to choose whatever they want.....
Originally Posted by Vipa
AFAIK the standard issue sidearm for the RMP hasn't changed since I was in and that is the trusty (crap) Browning 9mm.
15 March 2005, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerome
Vipa/Paul,
He was doing a very convincing impression of someone who had been injured.
You may be right, and it may have been a blank, but even blanks have a safety distance. Deliberately letting off even a blank in a classroom full of kids is an extremely reckless and dangerous way of teaching firearm safety. How could someone respect the word of someone who - apparently - can't practice what he is preaching.
Would you impressed with a driving instructor who crashes whilst demonstrating how to drive safely?
Jerome.
(Ex Infantry, Royal Engineers and ex Skill at Arms Instructor )
He was doing a very convincing impression of someone who had been injured.
You may be right, and it may have been a blank, but even blanks have a safety distance. Deliberately letting off even a blank in a classroom full of kids is an extremely reckless and dangerous way of teaching firearm safety. How could someone respect the word of someone who - apparently - can't practice what he is preaching.
Would you impressed with a driving instructor who crashes whilst demonstrating how to drive safely?
Jerome.
(Ex Infantry, Royal Engineers and ex Skill at Arms Instructor
)Also.... if you were infantry you would know that whilst on blank firing excersise your weapon (SLR in my day, SA80 now) was fitted with a bright yellow muzzle attachment... this was for 2 reasons... 1. to help the weapon cycle, as with no round going through the barrel a blank would struggle to cycle the weapon due to lack of pressure and 2. to stop any injuries or powder burns if the weapon was discharged at close quaters. If the handgun was intended as a school demo weapon to teach kids about gun safety then the muzzle will probably be blocked up... in fact it's probably a replica rather than the real thing... a 9 year old isn't going to know the difference, to be honest most adults wouldn't either.
I go back to the ABSOLUTE lack of panick in the room following the discharge (replaced by smirks and laughter!!!) the ABSOLUTE lack of screaming kids (I've shot enough handguns on indoor ranges to know how painful it is when you forget to put your ear defenders on... outdoors is a different matter) and also the fact that the officer's partner confirms his weapon clear after the officer himself checks it.... wouldn't happen....
You are reading far too much into this and apart from anything else........
Do you honestly think any police force in the world would allow a handgun demonstration to take place in a classroom of small children using LIVE ammunition............ I think not!!!!!!
PS in reference to:
"Deliberately letting off even a blank in a classroom full of kids is an extremely reckless and dangerous way of teaching firearm safety. How could someone respect the word of someone who - apparently - can't practice what he is preaching."
That was the whole point of the excersise to show how easy it is for accidents to happen...... the best way to get a kid to remember something like that is to make it exciting... telling the room that it might go bang won't achieve anything!
Paul
15 March 2005, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ajm
Yeah, I think there is some mechanism to lock the firing pin until the trigger is right back, so it guards against it going off accidentally when dropped etc... but it doesn't offer any defence against muppets squeezing the trigger when they shouldn't!
The only way to make them safe is to remove the mag, operate the slide to eject any remaining round from the breech and visually inspect the bore. The only way to release the hammer is to dry fire!
Personally I think they are ****e, because safety issues aside they are apallingly balanced, very flicky and completely inaccurate.... so it shouldn't surprise us that several UK police forces have started using them (model 17's)
The only way to make them safe is to remove the mag, operate the slide to eject any remaining round from the breech and visually inspect the bore. The only way to release the hammer is to dry fire!
Personally I think they are ****e, because safety issues aside they are apallingly balanced, very flicky and completely inaccurate.... so it shouldn't surprise us that several UK police forces have started using them (model 17's)
They have 3 safetys (trigger, firing pin and drop safety) but all hinge on the gimp behind the trigger ! I have made exactly the same mistake as this guy but with a Glock-17, didn't realise there was one up the spout and dry-fired into the floor - I nearly shat my pants.
You will also notice that he did follow procedure correctly and got his partner to confirm that the chamber was clear
15 March 2005, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Taff107
....Sig sauer and are you classing RMP CP as special forces?(!)
Not on any CP tour I've heard of...
Correct...
Not on any CP tour I've heard of...
Correct...
With ref to RMP CP being SF... I suppose it's down to your point of view.... ok technically they aren't SF but they are the armed guys in the suits with the little earpieces in who protect the queen, the PM, foriegn dinatories & VIPs.... how special do they need to be?
Paul
15 March 2005, 10:35 AM
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Just as an additional note.... just watched the vid again........
He goes on to demonstrate an assault rifle AFTER he's just shot himself in the thigh.......... Come on.....
Did you notice that his partner didn't even flinch when it happened... did you notice that the other helpers in the room just carried on about thier business... no one rushing to see if he was ok... SET UP for the kids.
I don't doubt the validity of the Washington Times article but it didn't go on to say that he had been thrown off the force for using live ammo in a classroom full of kids.... cos it should have!!!!! May have been a separate incident...
Really not convinced.
Also... I'm really not interested in a p@ssing competition here "I know more about guns than you do" there are people on here who obviously know far more than me!
Paul
He goes on to demonstrate an assault rifle AFTER he's just shot himself in the thigh.......... Come on.....
Did you notice that his partner didn't even flinch when it happened... did you notice that the other helpers in the room just carried on about thier business... no one rushing to see if he was ok... SET UP for the kids.
I don't doubt the validity of the Washington Times article but it didn't go on to say that he had been thrown off the force for using live ammo in a classroom full of kids.... cos it should have!!!!! May have been a separate incident...
Really not convinced.
Also... I'm really not interested in a p@ssing competition here "I know more about guns than you do" there are people on here who obviously know far more than me!
Paul
15 March 2005, 11:16 AM
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I think that was a clever teaching ploy to really get the point home. Nothing better than convincing people that anyone can make a stupid mistake and it made them all wake up too.
I used to use similar "mistake" type ploys when I was teaching people to fly aircraft. There is always a time when you are learning and you think you have got the business "hacked" and that is when you make the fatal mistake.
Its a good thing to show something that sticks in the mind for later.
Les
I used to use similar "mistake" type ploys when I was teaching people to fly aircraft. There is always a time when you are learning and you think you have got the business "hacked" and that is when you make the fatal mistake.
Its a good thing to show something that sticks in the mind for later.
Les
15 March 2005, 11:20 AM
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I suppose at the end of the day there is no way of proving whether this video is authentic, or that it is the same event as mentioned in the news story, but if you watch it in full screen mode around the 55 second mark you can just make out the shell casing being ejected, so the slide definitely operated. Whether or not it was a blank firer we cannot tell, but to me it look like it was pointing as if to graze his left hip area at the instant it went off.
15 March 2005, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ajm
I suppose at the end of the day there is no way of proving whether this video is authentic, or that it is the same event as mentioned in the news story, but if you watch it in full screen mode around the 55 second mark you can just make out the shell casing being ejected, so the slide definitely operated. Whether or not it was a blank firer we cannot tell, but to me it look like it was pointing as if to graze his left hip area at the instant it went off.
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