unclebuck

He doesn't like it when the *truth* gets exposed does he?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4316791.stm

Well done Michael Howard, keep up the good work.

UB

paulr

Actually no,i've just watched his speech in Dundee and he was very impressive.
If you dont think he has gone some way to improving the NHS,and you think MH would do a better job,then vote Tory.....its your choice UB.

But dont judge the whole NHS on one case.

SJ_Skyline

Oh the irony! Surely this statment by ol'Tone is opportunistic!

Geezer

Considering it was the Tories that started the rot in the NHS, it is pretty rich of Howard to try and score poilitical points like this.

The fact that Labour have not really improved the situation should make you realise that they are all as bad as each other.

God forbid that UB would see any bad in the Tories though

Geezer

unclebuck

dont judge the whole NHS on one case.

On message as usual. What a loyal foot soldier you are.

OllyK

OK - the "whole" NHS is crap. Always has been, probably always will be, just it is costing us twice as much now.

Jerome

How about judging it on 67,000 cancelled operations?

Iain Young

Typical spin there. Millions of surgical procedures are carried out by the nhs every day. In any system that large there are bound to be people who slip through the net. Typical that he picks one case then tars the whole health service with the same brush.

Might be worth pointing out that the main (stated) reason the operation has been postponed because not enough HDU beds were available. Under the last tory government there wasn't even such a thing as a hdu bed!!!

Of course, Tony would be saying exactly the same things if he was in Howards position. Both as bad as each other IMo...

Iain Young

There's also a lot more people using it now than there were 10 years ago, drugs cost more, nurses / doctors demand higher wages etc. It's not quite as clear cut as people would like to make it appear...

unclebuck

Typical spin there.

However, Margaret Dixon the unfortunate person who is in the front line says her case is not isolated. No spin, just honesty.

Geezer

And of course Margaret Dixon has access to all the NHS stats on numbers of operations and failed appointments etc. So more like uninformed opinion, not honesty.

Geezer

paulr

Thanks for trying to be INTELLIGENT Ian.

Iain Young

I'm sure it isn't isolated. But when you compare it to the number of successful operations / procedures that are carried out, it's a very small percentage.

I agree that it shouldn't happen at all, but highlighting a single case and using it to proclaim that the whole NHS is cr*p is utter lunacy. This is not the first time the Tories have tried this and it's backfired. I shall be watching this with interest...

Iain Young

I'm trying

Not defending any particular party, (I think they're all as bad as each other for different reasons). I just get very angry when people blindly state things as facts without actually looking into the real reasons behind it.

Things in real life are not black and white. I guess politicians think it has to be presented like that in the media etc though so that all the chavs out there can understand it. Fed up with being forced to watch/listen to dumbed down stuff all the time

paulr

One of the problems is its so hard to get relaible info on statisitcs within the NHS to make an informed judgement,re:
spending increases/number of operations/nhs man hours/health care spending trends/comapirsons with similair economies/balance between private and public etc.

paulr

Me too...when will someone give us the credit for being able to decide ourselves and just give us some information.

unclebuck

So, your saying that people's actual experiences are not relevent then, and that only statistics, which we all know can be manipulated to make political points, are the only things that count?

pslewis

92% of the population think the Tories have shot themselves in the foot over this one - and they are completely disinterested!!

And UB climbs on the same old bandwagon

Pete

paulr

Collective experiences are,single ones in isolation,no.

Dont forget the NHS is
"The NHS is the largest employer in Europe. It employs approximately 1.2 million staff and provides an enormous range of services to over 57 million people. In 2002, the annual budget stood at approximately £48 billion."

Third biggest employer in the world.

In these circumstances one bad experience,while awful for the lady involved,is no way to judge such a huge organisation.

paulr

TBH Pete,so have you.
Both of you are becoming very tedious.

(no offence intended,but i'm sure i'm not the only one who thinks this)

pslewis

And you haven't??

pete

Iain Young

If actually read the post you would know that's not what I was saying. I'm saying that you cannot deduce the state of the entire health service by highlighting a single case. Simply doesn't make sense.

The only way to accurately determine the state of the service is to look at the results acheived. This would have to be done by an independent organisation with no political or government ties whatsoever. Not very likely to happen is it?

Also, take a single case. People can also be manipulated to make political points. Remember the cancer patient that was highlighted by the tory party at the last election? Very similar to this one, in that they claimed to have been denied treatment, shifted from bed to bed etc. Turned out he was a right awkward patient who was actually refusing treatment and beds because he didn't like the room / doctor etc.

People can be manipulated just as easily as statistics. It just depends on the spin put around them. Ask any patient their opinion of the service, and you are not going to get an objective answer.

paulr

I dont know,have i?

Like i said,no offence,its just that its the same old stuff,how often do you read a thread (like this) on scoobynet and actually learn something new?

pslewis

I agree ...... http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=408349

Pete

Vegescoob

The Kings Fund, www.kingsfund.org.uk is recognised as an independent source of information regarding health issues.

Iain Young

Based almost solely in London though, so still not really a true reflection of what is happening countrywide...

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Well, I'm certainly not a Labour supporter after the last 8 years, but then, I hate the Tories too, since I lived and worked through THEIR mess under Thatch.

So I don't particularly like John Reid.........but on TV this morning, he pointed out that the phone calls they were making to Mrs Dixon were going to the local Young Conservative's Association, and that his invite to see her had come from them too!

Somebody's making political capital while purporting to be helping this woman.

Anyone else remember the woman who'd supposedly been on a stretcher for 20+ hours, just before the last election?

IMHO, the whole lot are as bad as each other. The sooner we give up and let the USA, Europe, ANYONE rule us, the better!

Alcazar

scoobynutta555

Unclebuck

Can't wait 'til election day. Such a feast of sour grapes you shall have. By the way, I've asked you twice now what Impreza you have, you've not answered.

I'll bet you £50 the Conservaties won't win the next general election.

Put your money where your mouth is or **** off back to the politically niave corner you came from.

Leslie

He souned impressive in Scotland if that is how you wanted him to appear to be. He is very good at preaching to specially selected audiences who won't cause him any grief and at delivering a well rehearsed speech written for him by his spin doctors.

In typical NL fashion, he will keep telling us what he wants us to believe even though we are all knowledgeable enough now to see through it for the big smokescreen that it is.

Preaching to the converted always looks good on camera!

Les

dba

"good work"? are you insane Mr Buck?its political oportunism,which is to be expected on both sides tbh,but how is one patient an example of anything? hardly statistically sound is it? 20,000 patients leave hospital everyday,has he checked everyone?

unfortunatley Mr Howard will rely on an electorate who can't think for themselves intelligently