ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Right, I'm asking for the unobtainable (typically)

I'm fed up speakers with small drivers, floor standers and bookshelvers. Great for top end, imaging, vocals and midrange stuff. But all fall to pieces when anything low that ressembels the average rock concert is asked for (bass drums etc).

I mourn for my long gone SEAS driven floorstanders with 10" bass drivers. Not so good with the mids and top end (well truth was the midrangers were knackered). But they had depth, rich sound. Sub bass frequencies were achievable. And they sounded great no matter what position the listener was in. Whereas with the small stuff they only give the right sound when I'm sat in the "listening" position.


So, what I want is BIG! So I'm talking Big drivers with a good natural low end resonance. Nothing forced low by masses of ports and passive drivers. With midrangers and tweeters capeable of keeping up with the pace. Also it has to be loud. When I mean loud, I'm talking Rock concerts here, so high efficiency is in the order of at least 92+db. It will need to have a good powerhandling capeability.

And then I will need the amp that can actuallly run the things. Nowadays most "home Hi-Fi" amps are very weedy, with falsified figues that are measured at 2-4ohms rather than the standard 8ohms Or with THD % alot higher than 0.001% (one amp specs I read was measured at 1% THD )

And finally. I was thinking of a AV system. With the two big jobbies as fornt L and R (which allows me to use them for normal 2 channel). Whilst using lesser quality bookshelvers for the rest of the system.

Does this sound impossible? Well, on a budget anyway (ideally less than £1K?). As you can guess - I'm not in Audiophile la la land when it comes to purity of sound. Any inconsistancies I can easily dial out with a good DSP or equaliser at a later date.

I was thinking using of rack mount power amps - it seems to be the only available option of getting the power requirement, as most high output home Hi-Fi systems are just silly money.

Just to get an idea - I was thinking Cerwin Vega E-series...712 or 710 front L&R, with smaller bookshelf variants for the rest. But most importantly, I would need a dolby AV 5.1/6.1/5.1 Pre-amplifier to run the rack amps off.

Does such a thing exist at normal prices?

Any ideas, suggestions, urine taking is welcome. Perhaps I should post this in an AV forum, but they speak a different language most of the time

Taff107

Dieseldog

lol Taff

dpb

lol................surley Tels ta man for this one ?

Hanslow

Fantastic Taff

I was thinking exactly the same.....

Looks like they'd be able to easily help you on the AV forums given the different language you are using in your original post You lost me on about the third line

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

And I was trying too

Ahh well, off to the AV forums then....next thing they'll tell me is that using doorbell wire for speaker connects is no good

dba

Ali

would you say 25 watts is weedy? I use that to drive 86db speakers,with 5" drivers.I cant get passed 11 oclock without disturbing the neighbours,and bass goes down to 35hz.

If you just lust after stats you could end up with one unholy mess.And good bass is as much about speaker design as it is about the size of the driver.

best to listen for yourself and ignore the stats.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Yes it is though weedy though - how the hell can a pair of Cerwin vega E-712's cope at high volume without turning into a quivering mess of flappy and farty bass?

That's the point, I used to have big stuff. And then I went with the trend of what all these audio enthusiasts use and Although I like the high end and imaging. I still up being disappointed.

I know the stats should be taken with salt. 99% of time they are fiddled anyway But the pro PA stuff does tends to do what it says on the tin.

I've been through a fair few amps and speakers...On the average 5" units with bass rated at down to 35hz, that's good, but at that rated frequency the actual audio output level in dB is Half that of the higher frequencies. With 86db efficiency they'll need a hell of an amp to keep them moving without farting through the ports at the audio levels I'm taking about.

When I can smell that insulating coating that's on the speaker windings burning off I know that either my amp is too weedy or the speakers are. Testing a bigger amp on one pair I had (KEF K's) resulted in the drivers seriously complaining about being overpowered. Simply put, they couldn't cut it. Tried various other small driver/large cabinet combos without much success. So I'm resorting back the American way - BIG!

hedgehog

You might want to take a look at pro gear or perhaps even second hand pro gear. Some studio installations can go to 120dB(A) at 20Hz. The one thing to be careful of is that what the hi-fi magazines describe as "better" might be considered as "distortion" in the pro market. It is perfectly reasonable for different people to prefer different sounds but because it is, for the most part, neutral pro gear can sound "flat" and even somewhat "lifeless" to those used to gear with a bit of distortion and colouration. You pays your money and takes your choice I guess.

Also speaker and amp design moves on and there are lots of clever people out there coming up with better and better designs.

The choice is almost infinite and even ebay might turn up some ideas. Also active speakers are the way to go for quality no problems with damping factors and so on. Some that come to mind, though not the only or necessarily the best from your point of view:

Basically home gear but designed by a very clever man indeed who has a lot of respect in the pro audio community, he knows the difference between "better" and "correct." I've done some work with John Watkinson and I think he is getting it right:

http://www.celticaudio.com/

Low end perhaps in studio terms but getting a great reputation:

http://www.mackie.com/products/studiomonitors/

Have sorted out their bottom end and if well supported can be very neutral:

http://www.atc.gb.net/

ScoobyDoo555

2nd vote for ATC - we had them at the studio (granted, they were the £20K ones with Crown Macrotech amps on each driver - 6 in total )

I would also look at the Genelec Active monitors - I really like the BM15s...... don't be put off by the size

Don't really know too much about Hi-Fi stuff - I'm a Pro-studio man, so everything else is sh1te

Dan

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Thanks hedgehog. I've seen some of ATC's stuff before and not been disaapointed, at one stage I was considering using their drivers to build my own units (but my lack of design knowledge prevented me from actually doing it). The active speaker approach is an alternative approach I'm considering. Although I still need to do some research on whats the best thing to do with the preamp stage. Obviously the decision to opt for a multi channel AV system would make the choice quite restrictive.

hedgehog

Yeah, didn't mention Genlec but was listening to a pair recently, no idea of the model, but they were pretty small and went quite low and loud for a moderate sized room or as a rear pair in a bigger set-up. Again they would benefit from being well supported as the pair I heard had been thrown on a shelf out of the way and did sound like this wasn't ideal for them.

Many people will pay "pro" money for "domestic" gear without considering looking at what is about in the pro market. The neutral sound may not suit them but it has to be worth a listen. You will, generally, get a lot of noise for your cash but usually it isn't pretty in terms of furniture and your mates will not have read about it in "Hi-Fi Rip Off" mag and so will not be impressed by the neutral sound. However, you can be smug and buy an EQ to wind in a bit of bass boom at 100Hz and a presence peak for when they visit so it sounds like their hi-fi :-)

In the end each to their own and if you enjoy it then go for it.

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

a good setup for under £1k will be hard, but a lot of money can be saved if you buy a cheap sub woofer, i find these speakers to be excellent quality and they look superb in any room http://www.craneaudio.com/speakers/oceana3/index.asp

plus there is quite a few cheap denon amps around if you buy say a denon 1803 will be good quality but not high price. that should get you a nice looking system for not too much cash

dba

Ali,its not how many watts,its how good they are.You are unlikely to use more than 2 at normal listening levels.I will stick with my Class A egg fryers for now

active ATCs and Naim,take out a remortgage and then add some.I'm not a bass freak so I can't help you further

Jamz3k

TDL Studio 10's £199.95 best buy sound great for the price

PS your Post bored the bag clean outta me

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I'm not really a bass freak either (not in the sense of Nova boy at McD's drive thru), looking at my bass gain control now I have just under +2db dialed in. It's more that at high volume, the first thing to distort is the bass - as that is what sucks up the all current. From what I've experienced, small units need to be driven hard with big amps to stop them going into distortion at loud volume levels, and in general they end up loosing the linearity and start to sound somewhat tinny.

I might add the room has poor accoustics and is larger than average in size, which does not help things a single bit and probably why most stuff sounds lost and umimpressive in there.

I would have to treble the budget to lay my hands on a pair of ATC SCM's though And I really don't want to go down the small units+subwoofer route.

Anytime!

hedgehog

In that case maybe you want to give John's Celtic Audio gear a listen. I suspect the going rate for his active LS is about £5K. They might match well with a pair of the Mackies as rear speakers for when you want more than stereo, I think they are about £1.6K.

I know that leaves you with a bit of a problem in terms of the AV side of things but I suspect there will be a simple solution if you shop around. You might have to press a few more buttons and it might not have a remote control but it might fit the bill in audio terms and come in at less than 10K

logiclee

Depends on the budget, pro PA stuff would be ideal but we are talking £1000's.

The original post said less than £1k.

If ultimate audiophile quality is not the main requirement then I would keep the original equipment and go for a good active sub or a pair of good (Discounted/Used) active subs.

Cheers
Lee

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

As I seem to be going wildly off track with prices and going back into audiophile land again, I think maybe the best option is to ship stuff in from the states:

So as an outlay:

Cerwin vega E-712 $164 each +tax +shipping
Cerwin vega E-705 $90 each +shipping +tax
Cerwin vega E-76C $130 each + shipping +tax

Total = $638
Which converts to £330.72 UK Sterling plus the tax and shipping. So I'm talking a little over £550 once the duty and shipping is sorted.

That just leaves the amps and preamps, which will have to be bought in the UK (bloody 110volts )

So just as a quick shortlist from a few cataolgues I have without any major reading up or spec checking:

Audiohead AH1000, or a Numark dimension 3 or Gemini X03 for the front
and 3 gemini X01s or similar for the rear/centre.

All of which total at £630 including the VAT but + delivery (may collect anyway)
Just need the Pre-amp/ source which'll probably be another £600

So, around £1800 grand total,

800 quid over budget. But I may still drop the AV idea and just go the 2 channel route, if the source/preamp stage becomes too messy.

ta

legb4rsk

Ali-B, can you please let me know your location before I dispense any advise.I want to make sure I don't live to close!!!

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

If you haven't heard me already, I guess your safe. You'd probably have more bother from the neighbour opposite cleaning his car with "Ibiza Club hits 2002" blasting through a 3rd rate car audio system Anyway, at this point in time of typing - roughly in the Midlands area.