good article on turkey becoming a part of the eu
16 December 2004, 10:44 PM
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good article on turkey becoming a part of the eu
a good article from yossi sarid from the haaretz
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/515083.html
have a read, quiet interesting
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/515083.html
have a read, quiet interesting
16 December 2004, 10:52 PM
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hahaha nice one 
i dont know why from all the names did hey have to choose a name like turkey , its so silly i think it was coz of the mongol/turkman connection, their genghis khans decendants, his bloodline all became muslims and took islam to that area , china and also europe and india, they were known as mongols, them mongol, turkmen and then ottoman and some who went east were called mughals etc
i dont know why from all the names did hey have to choose a name like turkey , its so silly i think it was coz of the mongol/turkman connection, their genghis khans decendants, his bloodline all became muslims and took islam to that area , china and also europe and india, they were known as mongols, them mongol, turkmen and then ottoman and some who went east were called mughals etc
17 December 2004, 01:59 AM
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Moses, they don't call it "Turkey" in Turkish, that's just what we call it. Like the Japanese call their own country Nippon, not "Japan".
In the past few months I have made friends with a Turkish guy, he works for the same company. I have talked with him a lot about Turkey and what I've learned makes me very relaxed about the prospect of them becoming part of the EU.
I know that some people in the EU are worried about Turkey because of a number of reasons.
1. Religion (Islam)
People are worried that Turkey will somehow try to import Islam wholesale into the EU, try to convert us all. I think those views are misguided and show that they don't really understand Turkey and nature of religion and Islam in that country. Although it is a predominantly muslim country, it is secular. It is certainly not a fanatical or hard-line muslim state. The state actually employs/pays the salaries of the religious leaders of all the religious denominations. Some may not like that state control, but it allows the state to have control and makes sure Turkey stays moderate and tolerant nation as invisaged by Ataturk himself (the founder of modern Turkey). So the fanatics get no opportunity to get their foot in the door.
Many other muslim countries would probably not regard Turkish people as being good muslims anyway, very few women actually wear veils or burkas (sp?), drinking alcohol is usual (though more often at home rather than going to the pub), eating meat which is not halal doesn't seem to be a hanging offence etc. They have their share of very devout muslims too, but it's a long way from being the norm.
2. Economic
It's true that Turkey is not as prosperous as the old European countries like Germany, France and the UK, but if you compare it with the new member states then you cannot use that as a reason for excluding them. About 1/3 of the workforce are working in agriculture right now. This will be a challenge to Turkey as they more to a less agricultural and more "modern" economy. It's also true that once Turkey becomes part of the EU there will be free trade between Turkey and the rest of the EU, thus bringing more opportunities for business.
The EU also faces a demographic problem, not enough people in the future to earn the wealth to pay for the retired in their old age. Turkey has a young population and can help fill the needs of EU industry in the future. Most Turkish schoolkids are taught foreign languages, English and German being the most popular. Better to recruit from inside the EU than bring people from outside, no?
3. Power shift within the EU
Turkey would be the single biggest member state if it joins the EU. They would have greater voting rights than any other single country. However they would still only have a comparitively small vote compared to total vote from all EU countries. In other words, Turkey could not make anyone else do something they didn't want to.
Turkey still has problems, human rights have improved but need to be improved further, domestic violence needs to be addressed properly and there's the sticky problem of the Kurdish people that won't be solved anytime soon. Turkey have been members of NATO for years, so nothing will change on that front.
Turkish people have the freedom to practice their religion without supressing others and without letting the fanatics get any power. Turkey is a truely democratic country with all the benefits that we in the West espouse. The economics are improving greatly and joining would benefit them and in time would bring benefit to the EU.
A predominantly muslim country which is moderate, prosperous and democratic? The islamic fanatics would hate that. This is reason enough to let Turkey in I reckon !!
In the past few months I have made friends with a Turkish guy, he works for the same company. I have talked with him a lot about Turkey and what I've learned makes me very relaxed about the prospect of them becoming part of the EU.
I know that some people in the EU are worried about Turkey because of a number of reasons.
1. Religion (Islam)
People are worried that Turkey will somehow try to import Islam wholesale into the EU, try to convert us all. I think those views are misguided and show that they don't really understand Turkey and nature of religion and Islam in that country. Although it is a predominantly muslim country, it is secular. It is certainly not a fanatical or hard-line muslim state. The state actually employs/pays the salaries of the religious leaders of all the religious denominations. Some may not like that state control, but it allows the state to have control and makes sure Turkey stays moderate and tolerant nation as invisaged by Ataturk himself (the founder of modern Turkey). So the fanatics get no opportunity to get their foot in the door.
Many other muslim countries would probably not regard Turkish people as being good muslims anyway, very few women actually wear veils or burkas (sp?), drinking alcohol is usual (though more often at home rather than going to the pub), eating meat which is not halal doesn't seem to be a hanging offence etc. They have their share of very devout muslims too, but it's a long way from being the norm.
2. Economic
It's true that Turkey is not as prosperous as the old European countries like Germany, France and the UK, but if you compare it with the new member states then you cannot use that as a reason for excluding them. About 1/3 of the workforce are working in agriculture right now. This will be a challenge to Turkey as they more to a less agricultural and more "modern" economy. It's also true that once Turkey becomes part of the EU there will be free trade between Turkey and the rest of the EU, thus bringing more opportunities for business.
The EU also faces a demographic problem, not enough people in the future to earn the wealth to pay for the retired in their old age. Turkey has a young population and can help fill the needs of EU industry in the future. Most Turkish schoolkids are taught foreign languages, English and German being the most popular. Better to recruit from inside the EU than bring people from outside, no?
3. Power shift within the EU
Turkey would be the single biggest member state if it joins the EU. They would have greater voting rights than any other single country. However they would still only have a comparitively small vote compared to total vote from all EU countries. In other words, Turkey could not make anyone else do something they didn't want to.
Turkey still has problems, human rights have improved but need to be improved further, domestic violence needs to be addressed properly and there's the sticky problem of the Kurdish people that won't be solved anytime soon. Turkey have been members of NATO for years, so nothing will change on that front.
Turkish people have the freedom to practice their religion without supressing others and without letting the fanatics get any power. Turkey is a truely democratic country with all the benefits that we in the West espouse. The economics are improving greatly and joining would benefit them and in time would bring benefit to the EU.
A predominantly muslim country which is moderate, prosperous and democratic? The islamic fanatics would hate that. This is reason enough to let Turkey in I reckon !!
Last edited by Brit_in_Japan; 17 December 2004 at 02:06 AM.
17 December 2004, 11:08 AM
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Hi brit in japan i find your thread above very intresting can you tell me what you mean when you say about free trade between turkey and the eu
Is it possible now for me to import larger or food from the uk into turkey at the moment ?
Is it possible now for me to import larger or food from the uk into turkey at the moment ?
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17 December 2004, 10:07 PM
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thanks alot brit, man i was wondering what nippon was, japanese freight company nippon express i didnt know, i thought japanese called their country japan japon etc 
cheers and lol i swear i thought they called turkey turkiye no one ever told me that it wasnt.
mate i do agree, but they do oppress people who do want to go to the mosque and woman who want to wear a hijab, u mind that lady mp's who wanted to wear the hijab and still do but were ridiculed before recept erdogan came into power, yep they do that mate, not allow young lads in groups to pray together
and yes i luv my turkish brothers and sisters, but the turk men are f***ing pervs and disgrace to their ancestors the ottomans, ******* pervs.
no offence to the good turkish muslims.
paul food does come from turkey, turkey sausage and stuff and bread and turkish delight haha
i had a lassie come into my shop, she was nice, she said i will have a turkish delight, i said for a joke , i aint even turkish , im a scotsman from pakistani origin.
i said to her sure, u can have me anytime haha, she couldnt stop laughing, i said u will need to marry me first lol even a bigger laugh, had her in stitches
also paul, uk is the sole importer of yildiz shotguns from turkey, for hunting
and uk supply other countries too
http://www.yildizshotgun.com/
cheers and lol i swear i thought they called turkey turkiye
no one ever told me that it wasnt.mate i do agree, but they do oppress people who do want to go to the mosque and woman who want to wear a hijab, u mind that lady mp's who wanted to wear the hijab and still do but were ridiculed before recept erdogan came into power, yep they do that mate, not allow young lads in groups to pray together
and yes i luv my turkish brothers and sisters, but the turk men are f***ing pervs and disgrace to their ancestors the ottomans, ******* pervs.
no offence to the good turkish muslims.
paul food does come from turkey, turkey sausage and stuff and bread and turkish delight haha
i had a lassie come into my shop, she was nice, she said i will have a turkish delight, i said for a joke , i aint even turkish , im a scotsman from pakistani origin.
i said to her sure, u can have me anytime haha, she couldnt stop laughing, i said u will need to marry me first
lol even a bigger laugh, had her in stitches also paul, uk is the sole importer of yildiz shotguns from turkey, for hunting
and uk supply other countries too
http://www.yildizshotgun.com/
17 December 2004, 10:10 PM
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i read in the news today , hmm gaddafi haha made me laugh though
he warned europe not to let turkey in the eu, coz thats what the extremists want so they can come over and attack europe and also condemn turkey for siding with the west etc
he warned europe not to let turkey in the eu, coz thats what the extremists want so they can come over and attack europe and also condemn turkey for siding with the west etc
18 December 2004, 11:53 AM
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I'd say no to Turkey. They're already causing trouble and they're not even near to being 'in' yet.
Plus Blair is busy manipulating the issue to forward his own political agenda (for a change
)
Plus Blair is busy manipulating the issue to forward his own political agenda (for a change
)
18 December 2004, 11:55 AM
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Good article moses. I am however against Turkey becoming an EU member, basically because it seems to offer no real benefits to existing members, and will simply be a further drain on our resources.
Also surely you want a united Europe, with no internal squabbles, and as is mentioned in the article, with Turkey being an Islamic country, they are "not like us", and likely to have opposing views with the current EU members. This cant be a good thing. Europe should be made up of the traditional Western members, UK, France, Germany etc.
Also due to Turkeys large population it would automatically become one of the most powerful members in the European parliament.
Also surely you want a united Europe, with no internal squabbles, and as is mentioned in the article, with Turkey being an Islamic country, they are "not like us", and likely to have opposing views with the current EU members. This cant be a good thing. Europe should be made up of the traditional Western members, UK, France, Germany etc.
Also due to Turkeys large population it would automatically become one of the most powerful members in the European parliament.
18 December 2004, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by r32
Dont want them, appalling record on rights, everybodys rights........
Turkey is not in Europe any way.
Turkey is not in Europe any way.
18 December 2004, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by paulwrxboro
Hi brit in japan i find your thread above very intresting can you tell me what you mean when you say about free trade between turkey and the eu
Is it possible now for me to import larger or food from the uk into turkey at the moment ?
Is it possible now for me to import larger or food from the uk into turkey at the moment ?
18 December 2004, 12:52 PM
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Moses, you sort of prove my point. Turkey is a secular country, it's enshrined in the constitution so it will not become an "Islamic state". Islam is the predominant religion but Judaism and Christianity I believe have equal status in Turkey. Many Islamic countries therefore aren't big fans of the Turkish way of doing things. It is absolutely not letting fundamentalist Islam in through the back door as some people would have us believe.
As for coming to the party with an empty bottle, how much did Poland, the Baltic states, Slovenia etc bring to the party? Is anyone making noises about what the other candidate nations might bring to the party, Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania ???
Their human rights record is improving and to join the EU they would have to come into line with EU standards. EU law and the EU charter on human rights would become paramount in Turkey too, so to join they would have to accept that.
So what are people's objections?
As for coming to the party with an empty bottle, how much did Poland, the Baltic states, Slovenia etc bring to the party? Is anyone making noises about what the other candidate nations might bring to the party, Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania ???
Their human rights record is improving and to join the EU they would have to come into line with EU standards. EU law and the EU charter on human rights would become paramount in Turkey too, so to join they would have to accept that.
So what are people's objections?
18 December 2004, 03:43 PM
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I am not interested in the European union. What started out as a cozy little trading agreement which I am sure nobody would have a complaint with, has become a lumbering federal movement. This is NOT what we were told at the outset.
They will keep offering referendums on different aspects of the Union Its like asking, if I want a red, blue, or green Reliant Robin, NO I dont want a Reliant Robin.
They will keep offering referendums on different aspects of the Union Its like asking, if I want a red, blue, or green Reliant Robin, NO I dont want a Reliant Robin.
18 December 2004, 07:42 PM
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brit my friend, i dont want turkey to become a part of the eu, turkey was the islamic caliphate and i want it to be an islamic state, ottomons were the fairest of people to christians and jews, ask any jew and christian who lived their, when the christians were butchering the jews in europe it was the ottoman empire who brought them to turkey and the muslim lands, a real islamic state is always fair, just check out saladdins history and how he even gave christians and jews their own quarters and to rule by their own law, so its totally false that the islamic state are like fundamentlists, if u are talking about the taliban, well they didnt have a f***king clue, they werent a shariah law but a law unto themselves, most of them didnt even go past primary 4 education and werent even scholars.
lol @ pslewis haha that was funny turkey is not for life but for xmas haha nice one
and yes blair is gonna back up his allies isnt he, he is an *******
and werent even scholars.lol @ pslewis haha that was funny turkey is not for life but for xmas haha nice one
and yes blair is gonna back up his allies isnt he, he is an *******
18 December 2004, 08:00 PM
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One question that some of the better informed here may be able to answer.
How many christian churches have been built and allowed to operate in Turkey in the last 50 years?
I am struggling to get to grips with the fact that all faiths are free to build, dedicate and use houses of worship in the UK and, in fact, all the free world. There is even a mosque opposite the Vatican!
But if I were to try to enter Saudi with a cross on a chain around my neck and it was spotted I'd get sent home. No churches being built in Muslim countries, I'd say.
So where's this great fairness?
SB
How many christian churches have been built and allowed to operate in Turkey in the last 50 years?
I am struggling to get to grips with the fact that all faiths are free to build, dedicate and use houses of worship in the UK and, in fact, all the free world. There is even a mosque opposite the Vatican!
But if I were to try to enter Saudi with a cross on a chain around my neck and it was spotted I'd get sent home. No churches being built in Muslim countries, I'd say.
So where's this great fairness?
SB
18 December 2004, 10:50 PM
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theirs alot of churches that get built in turkey mate, check it out with the turkish goverment
and also saudi arabia is the holy land, its like asking the pope to build a mosque next to the vatican, it will never happen and same with a mosque next to the other holy temples of other faiths in ganga, nepal or hymalaya's or golden temple etc
only place in the muslim world where theirs been a law for 1400 yrs is in saudi arabia but not in any other muslim lands, the holy land of the kaba and medina, their will be no idolotary, but religion is for God alone, not for worshipping man, woman or money Gods, animal Gods or God who sleeps in 7 days and that gets tired and then refreshed . or any God that eats, ****es and sleeps, simple as that
if any person really wants to go and see the kaba or medina, some non muslims complain they can go to saudi arabia except for the holy cities , yes their is a condition, like a condition in any country in the world before u enter, the laws and values of that country.
in their its
their is no God( idol Gods, man Gods, money Gods , fake Gods etc etc ) but Allah( the one God of abraham), and mohammad is his messenger( prophet and messenger, not a God but a servant of God a creation)
yes u agree with that law, u can go to mecca and medina
as God told the children of israel before us , worship only God not idols and o your duty unto God
as the quranic verse goes
----------
40. O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.
41. And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
42. And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
43. And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).
44. Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?
45. Nay, seek ((Allah)'s) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-
46. Who bear in mind the certainty that they are to meet their Lord, and that they are to return to Him.
47. Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).
48. Then guard yourselves against a day when one soul shall not avail another nor shall intercession be accepted for her, nor shall compensation be taken from her, nor shall anyone be helped (from outside).
49. And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
50. And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.
51. And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.
52. Even then We did forgive you; there was a chance for you to be grateful.
53. And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright.
----------
and furthermore a promise made to father abraham the father of the arabs and jews about the holy city
125. Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
126. And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
127. And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
128. "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
129. "Our Lord! send amongst them an Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
130. And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.
131. Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
132. And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
133. Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in Islam)."
134. That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case!
135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
137. So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.
138. (Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah. And who can baptize better than Allah. And it is He Whom we worship.
and also saudi arabia is the holy land, its like asking the pope to build a mosque next to the vatican, it will never happen and same with a mosque next to the other holy temples of other faiths in ganga, nepal or hymalaya's or golden temple etc
only place in the muslim world where theirs been a law for 1400 yrs is in saudi arabia but not in any other muslim lands, the holy land of the kaba and medina, their will be no idolotary, but religion is for God alone, not for worshipping man, woman or money Gods, animal Gods or God who sleeps in 7 days and that gets tired and then refreshed . or any God that eats, ****es and sleeps, simple as that
if any person really wants to go and see the kaba or medina, some non muslims complain they can go to saudi arabia except for the holy cities , yes their is a condition, like a condition in any country in the world before u enter, the laws and values of that country.
in their its
their is no God( idol Gods, man Gods, money Gods , fake Gods etc etc ) but Allah( the one God of abraham), and mohammad is his messenger( prophet and messenger, not a God but a servant of God a creation)
yes u agree with that law, u can go to mecca and medina
as God told the children of israel before us , worship only God not idols and o your duty unto God
as the quranic verse goes
----------
40. O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.
41. And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
42. And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
43. And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).
44. Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?
45. Nay, seek ((Allah)'s) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-
46. Who bear in mind the certainty that they are to meet their Lord, and that they are to return to Him.
47. Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).
48. Then guard yourselves against a day when one soul shall not avail another nor shall intercession be accepted for her, nor shall compensation be taken from her, nor shall anyone be helped (from outside).
49. And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
50. And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.
51. And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.
52. Even then We did forgive you; there was a chance for you to be grateful.
53. And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright.
----------
and furthermore a promise made to father abraham the father of the arabs and jews about the holy city
125. Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
126. And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
127. And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
128. "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
129. "Our Lord! send amongst them an Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
130. And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.
131. Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
132. And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
133. Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in Islam)."
134. That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case!
135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
137. So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.
138. (Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah. And who can baptize better than Allah. And it is He Whom we worship.
18 December 2004, 10:55 PM
#24
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by the way sbradley , the uk and europe aint christian countries mate, yes majority of the people who are born here call themselves christian but it aint a christian country
if it was, u will be quitting drink , no sex before marriage and no children out of marriage, the bible says the b@st@rd shall not enter the congregation not even till the 10th generation, well no chance of that happening then . never ever one may get married but his son maybe be out of marriage and his son too, so how is it a christian country, no nightclubs and prostitution and no interest etc coz its forbidden, no eating pig according to the bible and jesus , u will all be circumsized too , coz st paul the anti jesus abolished the law of not eating pig and not getting circumsized.
and many other things
if it was, u will be quitting drink , no sex before marriage and no children out of marriage, the bible says the b@st@rd shall not enter the congregation not even till the 10th generation, well no chance of that happening then . never ever
one may get married but his son maybe be out of marriage and his son too, so how is it a christian country, no nightclubs and prostitution and no interest etc coz its forbidden, no eating pig according to the bible and jesus , u will all be circumsized too , coz st paul the anti jesus abolished the law of not eating pig and not getting circumsized.and many other things
18 December 2004, 11:05 PM
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Moses, you make an interesting point, as always
But there is a mosque next to The Vatican...
And don't make assumptions about me, old son. My wife and I were married before we lived together. Our daughter was born two years later. I don't believe in paying interest on loans (or charging it either - there is always a more agreeable solution) and as for my bits, they're my business!
But regardless of that I would still argue that we are a christian country in that the majority of our laws are based on christian laws, our working lives are based on the christian calendar and our monarch is head of the (christian) Church of England and sworn as defender of the faith. The rest of Europe is much the same - especially the latin countries where catholicism is so strong.
SB
PS I didn't think you were allowed to quote the Koran in English? Or is it just that the quote becomes your interpretation and not the Word of God?
But there is a mosque next to The Vatican...
And don't make assumptions about me, old son. My wife and I were married before we lived together. Our daughter was born two years later. I don't believe in paying interest on loans (or charging it either - there is always a more agreeable solution) and as for my bits, they're my business!
But regardless of that I would still argue that we are a christian country in that the majority of our laws are based on christian laws, our working lives are based on the christian calendar and our monarch is head of the (christian) Church of England and sworn as defender of the faith. The rest of Europe is much the same - especially the latin countries where catholicism is so strong.
SB
PS I didn't think you were allowed to quote the Koran in English? Or is it just that the quote becomes your interpretation and not the Word of God?
18 December 2004, 11:12 PM
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their translations mate, i read it in english coz i cant speak arabic i can read arabic but cant understand it , this is from the english translation
im not making assumptions but majority in the uk aint married and having a christian calendar or a monarch a head of the church of england dont make it a christian country mate, u should know that, same monarchs, kids commit adultery and have sex out of marriage
u aint allowed abortions , but still happens
and same with the catholic countries, they aint suppose to use condoms and do the same outside marriage, still happens, **** gets made their no one condemns striptease or page 3 stuff, kiss and tells are forbidden, but huge culture here and papers make money out of forbidden and evil stuff and celebrity worship etc.
i hope u understand where im getting at, yes we say its a christian country but trust me majority of the laws arent christian in this country.
edited to add yes its cool to quote the quran in english mate
and as the verses suggest , the original followers of jesus the real christians they were classed as muslims as so was the original hebrews
nope their isnt a mosque next to the vatican, but it is in rome further away
, this is from the english translationim not making assumptions but majority in the uk aint married
and having a christian calendar or a monarch a head of the church of england dont make it a christian country mate, u should know that, same monarchs, kids commit adultery and have sex out of marriage u aint allowed abortions , but still happens
and same with the catholic countries, they aint suppose to use condoms and do the same outside marriage, still happens, **** gets made their no one condemns striptease or page 3 stuff, kiss and tells are forbidden, but huge culture here and papers make money out of forbidden and evil stuff and celebrity worship etc.
i hope u understand where im getting at, yes we say its a christian country but trust me majority of the laws arent christian in this country.
edited to add yes its cool to quote the quran in english mate
and as the verses suggest , the original followers of jesus the real christians they were classed as muslims as so was the original hebrews
nope their isnt a mosque next to the vatican, but it is in rome further away
Last edited by moses; 18 December 2004 at 11:14 PM.
18 December 2004, 11:21 PM
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one more thing bradley
according to the bible , adulterer and adulteress gets stoned to death, its the law
jesus never ever abolished it, as a muslim their is a law, u need witness's before condeming and the jews had a law as well, he asked the the one who hasnt sinned to cast the first stone, while he was waiting, he was scribbling on the ground, people looked at what he was scribbling and went away
u know what he was scribbling, he was scribbling those peoples names who were condeming this woman , the ones who themselves had commited adultery, soon as they saw he was scribbling their names, they went away in humiliation, something the christian church doesnt like to talk about what he was scribbling and according to the law then he asked for the accusers, their were none and he forgive her and said sin no more.
st paul the anti christ, abolished the law
by the way stoning the adulterers isnt in the quran, so some muslims follow a jewish law, in the quran its lashes with whips
and then the partner has the right to divorce the adulterer, then no good person will marry the adulterer , adulterer can only marry an adulteress, vice versa, but if the partner forgives they can.
according to the bible , adulterer and adulteress gets stoned to death, its the law
jesus never ever abolished it, as a muslim their is a law, u need witness's before condeming and the jews had a law as well, he asked the the one who hasnt sinned to cast the first stone, while he was waiting, he was scribbling on the ground, people looked at what he was scribbling and went away
u know what he was scribbling, he was scribbling those peoples names who were condeming this woman , the ones who themselves had commited adultery, soon as they saw he was scribbling their names, they went away in humiliation, something the christian church doesnt like to talk about what he was scribbling and according to the law then he asked for the accusers, their were none and he forgive her and said sin no more.
st paul the anti christ, abolished the law
by the way stoning the adulterers isnt in the quran, so some muslims follow a jewish law, in the quran its lashes with whips
and then the partner has the right to divorce the adulterer, then no good person will marry the adulterer , adulterer can only marry an adulteress, vice versa, but if the partner forgives they can.
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