Been caught by a lazer gun - ways out?
10 October 2004, 04:31 PM
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Been caught by a lazer gun - ways out?
Got zapped by a lazer gun - 3 points and £60....BUT...it was from 465ft with a hand-held gun and there was a black Type-R next to me, who was going faster!
It there any way out of this? I've heard there is a legal loophole to help get out of this...HELP!
It there any way out of this? I've heard there is a legal loophole to help get out of this...HELP!
10 October 2004, 04:43 PM
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That distance is not very far in laser terms, the officer will quite easily pick individual vehicles out at much greater distances.
You could question calibration/accuracy issues but I doubt this would help as the laser only requires to be calibrated yearly and the officer will have done an accuracy check prior to use.
Hope this helps.
You could question calibration/accuracy issues but I doubt this would help as the laser only requires to be calibrated yearly and the officer will have done an accuracy check prior to use.
Hope this helps.
10 October 2004, 05:01 PM
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Dont think you can get out of it, just be as awkward as you can so the scum spend maximum money on admin for it (ie request all the calibration docs etc anyway as I believe youre entitled to do this).
There was a template of a letter you can send (its on pepipoo.com) stating that you refuse to inciminate yourself as being the driver due to it being illegal under European law or something - however this will of course only work if theres at least a couple of people named on the car you were caught in.
Spotted a cleverly hidden police car, with policeman standing next to it holding a gun on the M4 today, his police car was only a Volvo so obviously he was busy collecting revenue so his force can upgrade to BMW's/Mercedes/Range Rovers like other forces..
There was a template of a letter you can send (its on pepipoo.com) stating that you refuse to inciminate yourself as being the driver due to it being illegal under European law or something - however this will of course only work if theres at least a couple of people named on the car you were caught in.
Spotted a cleverly hidden police car, with policeman standing next to it holding a gun on the M4 today, his police car was only a Volvo so obviously he was busy collecting revenue so his force can upgrade to BMW's/Mercedes/Range Rovers like other forces..
Last edited by Petem95; 10 October 2004 at 05:05 PM.
10 October 2004, 05:19 PM
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Bet the NIP didnt come as a recorded letter........
They say the fact that the computer issued the letter is proff of delivery in law BUT just do a search for the amount of post lost by the Royla Mail and look at the info on their site regarding guaranteed delivery of letters. Have a look on Yoahh Groups for Unsigned Forms and that peepio website all good info. Look here as well http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/
But as I say bet the NIP never came recorded... dont forget they get 14 days and a few more leyway to serve the NIP.....
Make it as DIFFICULT as poss ie ask for the video for your case etc etc etc etc
They say the fact that the computer issued the letter is proff of delivery in law BUT just do a search for the amount of post lost by the Royla Mail and look at the info on their site regarding guaranteed delivery of letters. Have a look on Yoahh Groups for Unsigned Forms and that peepio website all good info. Look here as well http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/
But as I say bet the NIP never came recorded... dont forget they get 14 days and a few more leyway to serve the NIP.....
Make it as DIFFICULT as poss ie ask for the video for your case etc etc etc etc
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10 October 2004, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rotty
I have used a ;aser gun before and even at 2000+ ft there is absolutely no problem picking out individual cars
If it was the Speedace or Moni-speed ya in luck.
10 October 2004, 09:04 PM
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cover your licence in ambrosia custard and it will remove the ink from the "points" section but leave the paper licence intact, then just lie to your insurance company and say you have no points
if you have one of them posh photo card licences its a lot more tricky, PM me for details
if you have one of them posh photo card licences its a lot more tricky, PM me for details
10 October 2004, 09:33 PM
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Let's see if we can find out what is going on here!
Have you already paid the fine and accepted the fixed penalty offer?
Have you returned the Notice of Intended Prosecution stating that you were driving?
Were you stopped by police at the scene and so not sent an NIP?
There are no legal loopholes but there are some defences depending upon the correct circumstances.
Oh, and you don't spell stimulated with a Z.
Have you already paid the fine and accepted the fixed penalty offer?
Have you returned the Notice of Intended Prosecution stating that you were driving?
Were you stopped by police at the scene and so not sent an NIP?
There are no legal loopholes but there are some defences depending upon the correct circumstances.
Oh, and you don't spell stimulated with a Z.
11 October 2004, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by hedgehog
Let's see if we can find out what is going on here!
Have you already paid the fine and accepted the fixed penalty offer?
Have you returned the Notice of Intended Prosecution stating that you were driving?
Were you stopped by police at the scene and so not sent an NIP?
There are no legal loopholes but there are some defences depending upon the correct circumstances.
Oh, and you don't spell stimulated with a Z.
Have you already paid the fine and accepted the fixed penalty offer?
Have you returned the Notice of Intended Prosecution stating that you were driving?
Were you stopped by police at the scene and so not sent an NIP?
There are no legal loopholes but there are some defences depending upon the correct circumstances.
Oh, and you don't spell stimulated with a Z.
Not returned anything, but was asked name and address which was filled in on paper.
Was stopped by police and therefore won't expect anything through post as it was given by hand.
IMO, the 65 in a 40 zone, which is what I was accused of doing was the Civic Type-R next to me as it blatantly overtook me. The officer was using a little handheld gun at 465 feet. In the shock of the event, it didn't argue this thoroughly enough and just took the yellow leaflet. I did ask for evidence and he said 'I showed you the reading on the speed gun'.
11 October 2004, 03:44 PM
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Firstly the speed of the other car, or the fact that it overtook you doesn't matter. The fact is that it was you they decided to stop and so it is you with the ticket.
Unfortunately as the police actually stopped you at the scene this is a pretty tricky one to wriggle out of as you are in no position to question the NIP and request your right to silence.
Do you know what type of laser device was in use? Do you know if it was attached to video gear? Most are.
It is possible that you could plead not guilty and request that the video evidence be made available for you to have examined. From this you could calculate your speed by timing your car between physical points on the road, though you may need to employ an "expert" to carry out this process. You could also request proof that the device was correctly calibrated, that the police officer was trained in its use and that it was being used properly at the time, it is likely that the police will be in the clear on all of these. For example the officers radio must be turned off and there was even a case where the motorist questioned the RF interferance from a nearby electrical substation.
Mika and the folks on the pepipoo site are currently working towards questioning the accuracy of some of the laser devices. However, these devices are "Home Office Approved" which means to say that the government accepts that they are accurate, you will certainly not overturn this view in a magistrates court.
If you decide to go not guilty then request the WHOLE video from the WHOLE shift on which you were caught. In many cases they are reluctant to provide this and it can give you an opening for escape on a technical point. The data protection act, for example, is not a valid excuse for them not to give you this video as there is a specific clause in it which exempts such material. There was also one case where other parts of a particular video showed a dog which the system claimed was travelling at 70mph and this had an impact in court.
These routes are open to you if you want to put in the necessary research and work and, in truth, even if you lose it is unlikely that you will get more than 3 points or that the fine will be much more than £100, but it is impossible for anyone to be sure of that. You do have to be aware, however, that to stand a good chance of mounting a reasonable defence in this case you probably need a lawyer with considerable experience of motoring matters, or even better someone who works only on motoring matters. If you really believe you were not doing 65mph then representation is not likely to be cheap but it would be worth fighting it on a point of principle, if nothing else. If you want to go it alone then good luck, there are plenty of resources on the internet and www.abd.org.uk, www.pepipoo.com and www.safespeed.org.uk are certainly worth a look, if you are going it alone then it will take many hours of research to get up to speed with the system and the law.
Unfortunately as the police actually stopped you at the scene this is a pretty tricky one to wriggle out of as you are in no position to question the NIP and request your right to silence.
Do you know what type of laser device was in use? Do you know if it was attached to video gear? Most are.
It is possible that you could plead not guilty and request that the video evidence be made available for you to have examined. From this you could calculate your speed by timing your car between physical points on the road, though you may need to employ an "expert" to carry out this process. You could also request proof that the device was correctly calibrated, that the police officer was trained in its use and that it was being used properly at the time, it is likely that the police will be in the clear on all of these. For example the officers radio must be turned off and there was even a case where the motorist questioned the RF interferance from a nearby electrical substation.
Mika and the folks on the pepipoo site are currently working towards questioning the accuracy of some of the laser devices. However, these devices are "Home Office Approved" which means to say that the government accepts that they are accurate, you will certainly not overturn this view in a magistrates court.
If you decide to go not guilty then request the WHOLE video from the WHOLE shift on which you were caught. In many cases they are reluctant to provide this and it can give you an opening for escape on a technical point. The data protection act, for example, is not a valid excuse for them not to give you this video as there is a specific clause in it which exempts such material. There was also one case where other parts of a particular video showed a dog which the system claimed was travelling at 70mph and this had an impact in court.
These routes are open to you if you want to put in the necessary research and work and, in truth, even if you lose it is unlikely that you will get more than 3 points or that the fine will be much more than £100, but it is impossible for anyone to be sure of that. You do have to be aware, however, that to stand a good chance of mounting a reasonable defence in this case you probably need a lawyer with considerable experience of motoring matters, or even better someone who works only on motoring matters. If you really believe you were not doing 65mph then representation is not likely to be cheap but it would be worth fighting it on a point of principle, if nothing else. If you want to go it alone then good luck, there are plenty of resources on the internet and www.abd.org.uk, www.pepipoo.com and www.safespeed.org.uk are certainly worth a look, if you are going it alone then it will take many hours of research to get up to speed with the system and the law.
11 October 2004, 04:15 PM
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Hedgehog
Thank you for taking the time to write a detailed reply. I am sure others in the future will find it as useful as I did.
I think it would have been best to challenge the officer when the penalty was issued. And if I had knowledge of some of the points you make at the time of the alledged offence, then I would have looked for possible fallacies in their detection method. All I seem to remember is that the officer taking the readings was standing up and pointing the gun at oncoming cars, without the use of a tripod etc.
Unfortunately, I do not have the time to research in order to represent myself in court. Neither do I have the funds to hire a good lawyer.
On this occassion I will accept the fine and points but will be better knowledged in the future.
Thank you for taking the time to write a detailed reply. I am sure others in the future will find it as useful as I did.
I think it would have been best to challenge the officer when the penalty was issued. And if I had knowledge of some of the points you make at the time of the alledged offence, then I would have looked for possible fallacies in their detection method. All I seem to remember is that the officer taking the readings was standing up and pointing the gun at oncoming cars, without the use of a tripod etc.
Unfortunately, I do not have the time to research in order to represent myself in court. Neither do I have the funds to hire a good lawyer.
On this occassion I will accept the fine and points but will be better knowledged in the future.
11 October 2004, 04:47 PM
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One quick point before you give up, go over to pepipoo and ask if the device used to "do" you has a calibration button that can be used to display a set speed. I don't think they do but know that the old radar guns did and I personally know one chap they tried to "do" for this calibration speed. Again, don't believe this happens with laser devices but worth asking if only for your peace of mind. It would be interesting if it had a calibration display of 65mph.
To be honest, and I think we should fight them at every opening, you probably have very little choice on this one as winning in court is likely to be expensive either in your time or in cash for representation. Also, 65 in a 40 is one of those sorts of speeds where if you got some green anti-car nutter of a magistrate you could gain a few more points or bigger fine, unlikely but...
You could write to them and enquire if the laser was attached to video recording gear as you are convinced you were not travelling at that speed (assuming that is the case) and were wondering if expert analysis of the video would be possible (play dumb) just to see the reaction. You might still have to pay up, but it might give you some satisfaction :-)
To be honest, and I think we should fight them at every opening, you probably have very little choice on this one as winning in court is likely to be expensive either in your time or in cash for representation. Also, 65 in a 40 is one of those sorts of speeds where if you got some green anti-car nutter of a magistrate you could gain a few more points or bigger fine, unlikely but...
You could write to them and enquire if the laser was attached to video recording gear as you are convinced you were not travelling at that speed (assuming that is the case) and were wondering if expert analysis of the video would be possible (play dumb) just to see the reaction. You might still have to pay up, but it might give you some satisfaction :-)
11 October 2004, 04:51 PM
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I hate to sound like a do gooder but...
You knew the law, your broke it. Take the punishment, you would be complaining if some guy burgled your house and then came on here asking how he could get away with it.
Good luck with it.
Flame suit on
You knew the law, your broke it. Take the punishment, you would be complaining if some guy burgled your house and then came on here asking how he could get away with it.
Good luck with it.
Flame suit on
Last edited by angrynorth; 11 October 2004 at 05:03 PM.
11 October 2004, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tronlc
Bet the NIP didnt come as a recorded letter........
They say the fact that the computer issued the letter is proff of delivery in law BUT just do a search for the amount of post lost by the Royla Mail and look at the info on their site regarding guaranteed delivery of letters. Have a look on Yoahh Groups for Unsigned Forms and that peepio website all good info. Look here as well http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/
But as I say bet the NIP never came recorded... dont forget they get 14 days and a few more leyway to serve the NIP.....
Make it as DIFFICULT as poss ie ask for the video for your case etc etc etc etc
They say the fact that the computer issued the letter is proff of delivery in law BUT just do a search for the amount of post lost by the Royla Mail and look at the info on their site regarding guaranteed delivery of letters. Have a look on Yoahh Groups for Unsigned Forms and that peepio website all good info. Look here as well http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/
But as I say bet the NIP never came recorded... dont forget they get 14 days and a few more leyway to serve the NIP.....
Make it as DIFFICULT as poss ie ask for the video for your case etc etc etc etc
Best get back to the drawing board.
11 October 2004, 06:07 PM
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The garage door opener might be worth considering but I would draw your attention to this posting currently being discussed over on pepipoo:
I've had a laser jammer fitted to my car for at least 6 years. It's probably gone off around 10-15 times in response to laser speed traps. I would say on 50% of those occasions I wasn't breaking the speed limit anyway. The other times, I've slowed down as soon as I've heard the warning in the car (so, in practise I've responded to it's warning in the same way as a detector rather than just carry on driving at the same speed knowing I won't get caught).
I've not been stopped, warned or informed by anyone in all this time that the use of a jammer is illegal.
My girlfriend borrowed my car for a day a few weeks ago. Driving through town, she heard the warning go off and saw a laser speed trap van further down the road. She wasn't stopped at the time and didn't feel that she was over the speed limit at the time.
On Monday night this week at about 8 pm we get a knock on the door. Two policemen ask my girlfriend if she was driving my car at the time, which she admitted and then proceed to caution us both and arrest my girlfriend on the charge of 'perverting the course of justice'.
They then make me take the jammer off the car (if I refused they would seize the car) as evidence.
My girlfriend is taken to the nearest 'designated station' which is 30 minutes away for a taped interview.
In the station she is treated just like any other criminal. Belt, jewellry, money etc. taken off her and put in a plastic bag. She's read her rights and the interview conducted.
The two arresting officers are reassuring her that it's just procedure and that the desk sergeant will release her with a warning. But oh no, the sergeant decides that this is not something she can do and refers it to the CPS. A date is set for her to return to the station to hear what the CPS want to do with it.
During the interview, she gives them the facts - Yes she knew that my car has various devices fitted to it, but she doesn't know what they all do (true). She did not operate the jammer herself as it turns on with the ignition, so anyone driving it would be unaware that it was fitted and what it does.
I've had a laser jammer fitted to my car for at least 6 years. It's probably gone off around 10-15 times in response to laser speed traps. I would say on 50% of those occasions I wasn't breaking the speed limit anyway. The other times, I've slowed down as soon as I've heard the warning in the car (so, in practise I've responded to it's warning in the same way as a detector rather than just carry on driving at the same speed knowing I won't get caught).
I've not been stopped, warned or informed by anyone in all this time that the use of a jammer is illegal.
My girlfriend borrowed my car for a day a few weeks ago. Driving through town, she heard the warning go off and saw a laser speed trap van further down the road. She wasn't stopped at the time and didn't feel that she was over the speed limit at the time.
On Monday night this week at about 8 pm we get a knock on the door. Two policemen ask my girlfriend if she was driving my car at the time, which she admitted and then proceed to caution us both and arrest my girlfriend on the charge of 'perverting the course of justice'.
They then make me take the jammer off the car (if I refused they would seize the car) as evidence.
My girlfriend is taken to the nearest 'designated station' which is 30 minutes away for a taped interview.
In the station she is treated just like any other criminal. Belt, jewellry, money etc. taken off her and put in a plastic bag. She's read her rights and the interview conducted.
The two arresting officers are reassuring her that it's just procedure and that the desk sergeant will release her with a warning. But oh no, the sergeant decides that this is not something she can do and refers it to the CPS. A date is set for her to return to the station to hear what the CPS want to do with it.
During the interview, she gives them the facts - Yes she knew that my car has various devices fitted to it, but she doesn't know what they all do (true). She did not operate the jammer herself as it turns on with the ignition, so anyone driving it would be unaware that it was fitted and what it does.
11 October 2004, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by angrynorth
I hate to sound like a do gooder but...
You knew the law, your broke it. Take the punishment, you would be complaining if some guy burgled your house and then came on here asking how he could get away with it.
Good luck with it.
Flame suit on
You knew the law, your broke it. Take the punishment, you would be complaining if some guy burgled your house and then came on here asking how he could get away with it.
Good luck with it.
Flame suit on
18 October 2004, 12:41 PM
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HedgeHog
I know you are only trying to help, but there is a lot of hype about laser jammers.
I have seeked legal advice from a solicitor and I have spoken to in person a traffic sergeant about laser jammers.
At the moment it is not illegal to transmit light, it never will be. The only possible law breaking is perverting the course of justice which you can only be prosecuted for if is you admit the purpuse of the device is to jam a laser speed measuring device.
Until specific laws are brought inplace it is a dangerous grey area but in my opinion not as dangerous as speeding and being caught. As the law has not been cleared up in this matter and the devices have not been classed as illegal is anyone 100% sure they are knowingly perverting the course of justice. Until a test case is brought forward or a specific law is brought in place, at the moment it is pretty safe to use laser jammers.
I read pepipoo and I post there. I followed the girlfriend case and as you probably know the laser jammer was returned to the owner and the case dropped. I presume the police constable approached the CPS and they dropped it like a hot potatoe. If they tried to prosecute this women and lost it would create a whole world of pain for the police. At the moment they will let the small minority of jammer users fly until a point in time when something is done.
some advice for jammer owners if you are approached by the police investigating your "garage door opener", you have a right to silence use it. Do not admit you know it jams speed guns, when they do become 100% illegal remove it from your car. Until that point be aware of the facts not the scaremongering.
I bet anyone that when a case is brought forward the manufactueurers of "garage door openers" will fight the corner with all their might, and they have good reason. The only reason they didnt with the guy in wales is that he pleaded guilty.
I know you are only trying to help, but there is a lot of hype about laser jammers.
I have seeked legal advice from a solicitor and I have spoken to in person a traffic sergeant about laser jammers.
At the moment it is not illegal to transmit light, it never will be. The only possible law breaking is perverting the course of justice which you can only be prosecuted for if is you admit the purpuse of the device is to jam a laser speed measuring device.
Until specific laws are brought inplace it is a dangerous grey area but in my opinion not as dangerous as speeding and being caught. As the law has not been cleared up in this matter and the devices have not been classed as illegal is anyone 100% sure they are knowingly perverting the course of justice. Until a test case is brought forward or a specific law is brought in place, at the moment it is pretty safe to use laser jammers.
I read pepipoo and I post there. I followed the girlfriend case and as you probably know the laser jammer was returned to the owner and the case dropped. I presume the police constable approached the CPS and they dropped it like a hot potatoe. If they tried to prosecute this women and lost it would create a whole world of pain for the police. At the moment they will let the small minority of jammer users fly until a point in time when something is done.
some advice for jammer owners if you are approached by the police investigating your "garage door opener", you have a right to silence use it. Do not admit you know it jams speed guns, when they do become 100% illegal remove it from your car. Until that point be aware of the facts not the scaremongering.
I bet anyone that when a case is brought forward the manufactueurers of "garage door openers" will fight the corner with all their might, and they have good reason. The only reason they didnt with the guy in wales is that he pleaded guilty.
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