coulty

My girl has just got one through the post. It didn't come registered post but did come within 7 days.

What can she do to avoid the points/fine if anything??

Thanks
Stuart

Tiggs

she needs a flux capacitor and a better understanding of what her brake pedal does

Dracoro

Colour blindness test too

If she did go through a red light then she should pay up full stop (usual disclaimers apply, getting out of the way of an emergency vehicle etc..)

Remember, most accidents happen at junctions, that's why there should be red light cameras everywhere instead of speed cameras. That WOULD improve safety on our roads. oooh, I'm going on, sorry

mrklaw

when do they kick off though? Eg, if you are approaching a green light fast (under the speed limit), and it changes to amber, its perfectly possible that it happens too late for you to reasonably stop without doing an emergency stop and potentially causing an accident. So you continue through and the light could be red when you do so.

Do they have leeway built in for this kind of thing?

The highway code is very vague about how close is 'reasonable' to stop, so its up to you to build up a comfort zone that may or may not be good enough for the camera.

hedgehog

Well, the NIP doesn't need to come registered post. However, it has to come at least 1st class post. If it didn't then keep the envelope and talk to a solicitor, she should have no case to answer if it was posted 2nd class.

The other possibility is that the NIP is actually illegal under EU law as it kills off your right to silence and to not incriminate yourself. Now this has been tested in a UK magistrates court and, of course, failed. However a Mags court means very little and the test was done with the intention of taking an appeal which is now in progress. I don't have a date for the hearing on that. Idris Francsis is also taking a similar appeal to the EU Court of Human rights so we will get an answer on this one, either way, at some point.

However, Mika over on pepipoo is leading the charge on this number and it would be worth going over there to see what the current form is. I believe he as a rather nice letter for sending to the Chief Constable pointing out that the NIP is illegal under EU law and asking what the CC would like done.

The EU law problem isn't just something that someone has made up. This is the view of an authority on the matter. With this in mind there will be a tricky while where people in the UK don't know exactly where they stand as there will be no instruction to Magistrates as no precedent has been set as yet and your GF is caught in this situation. It would certainly be worth her while sending the pepipoo letter to the CC who sent the NIP to see what the reaction is, she has 28 days to return the NIP so she can send the letter in the mean time. There is nothing to lose as she is not doing anything illegal by sending a letter asking a question while she waits to send off the NIP.

It is also possible that when the NIP is confirmed as illegal then there will be a class action and, clearly, she has a better chance of getting on board this if she has already taken steps to bring it to the attention of the CC that what he/she is doing is illegal.

Depending on how important this is to her than it may be worthwhile to employ the services of a solicitor WITH EXPERIENCE IN TRAFFIC MATTERS. Most solicitors will be of little use to you so you need someone with direct experience of these matters and who knows what you are talking about. However, this level of expertise costs a considerable sum of money.

Suresh

AFAIK the camera only flashes if you jump a light that has been red for a second or more. Therefore if you get flashed then it's not a marginal case and you could have actually stopped...

I'm sure someone who knows what they are talking about will confirm or deny this.

Suresh

corradoboy

http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/gatso02.htm

hedgehog

In the UK the amber light is always 3 seconds. There have been some suggestions about messing about with this but most people see it as an important safety factor that it is so constant and reliable.

In the US where they discovered that, like speed cameras, there was big money to be made out of red light cameras they started to mess about with the timing of the amber light to make the cameras more profitable. At many traffic lights with cameras the amber light was only on for a fraction of a second and, of course, the accident rate at traffic lights went through the roof as people slammed on the brakes at the slightest hint of an amber light. In many places in the US traffic light cameras have been removed because of the huge number of accidents they caused.

I have seen some calculations which indicate that the absolute maximum speed at which you can approach a green light and be sure to stop if it changes to amber, or get through cleanly on amber, is about 47mph. I usually find that somewhat less than that feels generally "safe" at traffic lights and clearly you would have to take other road conditions into account, the 47mph is an ideal conditions with no other factors or conflicting traffic figure.

mrklaw

that sounds like they go off anytime after the red light illuminates. They record the time elapsed, but I can't imagine anyone processing it actually checking speed Vs time after red and working out whether its reasonable

hedgehog

Once you cross a red light you have committed and offence. You may cross on amber, if you must, but you must not under any circumstances cross on red.

Tiggs

"Eg, if you are approaching a green light fast (under the speed limit), and it changes to amber, its perfectly possible that it happens too late for you to reasonably stop without doing an emergency stop and potentially causing an accident"

thats very hard to do unless you are a poor driver or have no brakes.

T

mrklaw

well, not really?

Junction 3 of the M3, heading towards bracknell/windsor. Traffic lights in a 50 zone.

So I can easily be doing 50 when approaching, and lets assume I'm 3 seconds away from the junction when they go amber. Thats 220ft away, doing 50mph. Now maybe its possible to stop in that distance, but surely I would be braking hard, and causing a potential accident if traffic is tailgating me?

Listed stopping distance is 175ft in the dry, so potentially 350ft in the wet. Sure, some cars will stop sooner than that, but not all.


Because of the uncertainty, I don't anymore, I usually coast at about 40 just in case they change

It all adds to people paying more attention to roadside cameras/speedbumps/narrowing areas, rather than on proper hazard perception.

OllyK

If a light is green as you are approaching it then you should assume that there is a good chance that it will have changed or be changing as you approach and so you should be easing off anyway.

All part of good observations, to be honest you shouldn't be approaching traffic lights at the speed limit anyway, it is a potential hazard and you should be ajusting your speed accordingly. The number of times I see death wish cyclists trundle through lights when they are red in their direction is terrifying.

So if your observations are good (you have seen the lights in good time) and you are adjusting your speed for hazards then I see no reason why anybody should be jumping red lights. Amber sure, you will often be at the point of no return and you can go through, that's why we have the safety margin.

Tiggs

you are not helping the anti camera lot by now including traffic lights in your list of things to worry about other than kids on the road...what next, sign post a bit tricky as well?

Leslie

What OllyK says makes sense, and also you can gauge the time within reason at which the green is likely to change to amber by the length of time you have been approaching the traffic lights. That would help the anticipation of having to stop.

Yes I know that lights don't all stay green for the same amount of time, its a guide.

Les

thecirsch

Forgive me if I'm wrong. I don't think there's anything in the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 that states that the NIP has to be sent 1st Class Post. It only has to arrive within 14 days of the offence.

MattW

The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, Section 6.-(3)
inserted the following sub-section into the RTOA 1988 (as above).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(1A) A notice required by this section to be served on any person
may be served on that person—
(a) by delivering it to him;
(b) by addressing it to him and leaving it at his last known
address; or
(c) by sending it by registered post, recorded delivery service or
first class post addressed to him at his last known address.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

milo

pmsl.. class

Dracoro

SENT within 14 days.

hedgehog

Thanks MattW. I really didn't want to have to go and look that up and I didn't have it to hand :-)

The fact that the law is just so complex is exactly why there can be so many novel defences and why people quite often "escape" because the CPS make mistakes. They can't be expected to know every word of every law any more than you or I can.

This is also why getting a good solicitor who specialises in the aspect of law you are currently dealing with is important.