matty01

...if a bio-terrorist attack meant we all had to stay indoors[ie no wages] for "some time" and the economy ...well... hiccupped and we all incured some debts what's the deal? Would the Gov. make institutions wind the clock back to the level off debt at the time off attack or what?...they're not going to re-po half the country are they?
[I'm not a fatalist and i'm sure itll never happen ,but i KNOW it could.]

fitzscoob

well its hard to say really, i would doubt that everyone would carry on getting paid or anything like that, all firms and employers would go bust.

matty01

Thats partly my point, surely ALL monetary transactions would be suspended for bussinessesesses and individuals ,if that would even work in practice....

Tiggs

noooo....the gov would use computers planted in shopping trolleys to track anyone still alive after such an attack. These ppl would then get their mortgage bill delivered by a TV screen built into the fridge..this avoids using the post (postman not allowed out after terrorist attacks)

anyone not paying their bills would be arrested by their robot controlled car and driven to a local prison.......ohh..hang on- i thought i was on the "goverment are XFiles baddies" thread

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Why are you planning one so you can catch up ?

chris's scooby

If there's been an attack and none of the survivers can get out of the house to go to work, how are the bailiffs going to repo your house anyway?!?

imlach

It's an interesting question, and one I don't recall ever seeing an answer about.

I guess you'd be looking at a "national state of emergency" type situation. Must be a start for google searching....

For those old enough, what happened to business/economy during the electricty strikes in the early 70's? I'm too young...

imlach

Actually, the best recent example in the UK would be WW2. Anyone care to state what happened during those times? Surely business was at an alltime low, and so how did people pay the bills with most of the men in the country at war?

State funded it all?

fast bloke

Manufacturing was at an all time high - employment was 100% - all the women worked in factories making bullets and planes and tanks. All the able bodied men went off in these planes and dumped the bullets somewhere else. This was all paid for by the state, but not in the form of direct handouts.

The main difference between then and now is the amount of debt people have. Less than 40% of people owned their homes at the time of WW2. Most of these owned them outright, so maybe less than 5% of the population had mortgages. (Which had only really been around for 10 years)
An average family would get paid on Friday in cash and buy food and pay rent until the next Friday. During the war this wasn't always practical, so people recieved rationing vouchers.

I would imagine that in the circumstances posted by matty, it would depend on the amount of time you had to stay indoors for. Most people could usually manage between two and four months with no income before they could no longer meet payments. If the entire country had to stay inside for four months, there would be other issues more important than mortgage payments. Mainly you would probably have died of thirst or starved to death by that stage. Somewhere between a couple of weeks and four months, the financial institutions would probably organise a mass rescheduling of mortgage arrears, adding a couple of quid a month for the rest of your mortgage. Less than a couple of weeks it would more than likely be business as usual, with option to reschedule etc if necessary.

On the bright side, even when you default on your mortgage, you need to make a really really big effort to get repo'd.

OllyK

It is pretty unlikely that terrorists could deploy a chemical or bio attack that would affect a very large area or that would remain air bourn for very long. A Radio / nuclear attack would be far more worrying, especially a dirty bomb where the effects could last for centuries, in which case you would end up with a Chenobyl unless several were detonated in which case a job will be the least of your worries.

imlach

It's only a matter of time surely.....

Dirty bombs relatively easy to make/get hold of.....and extremists who don't care about their own lives.

jjones

at that point it becomes everyman for himself. martial law etc. can't really see the nice man from the pru turning up and demanding the keys to my house.

Goochie

I agree with the thirst/starvation point - if you're not allowed out of the house for 4 weeks you will soon use up your food stocks. If the attack was that bad there may be implications for the water supplies too - meaning you cant drink tap water.

We're doomed Captain Manering! We're all doooomed !!!!!

OllyK

You may be right and while the principals involved behind creating a nuclear device are reasonably simple, 2 bits of nuclear material that will exceed critical mass when combined and a load of conventional explosive to smash it together, actually building one does require a smidge more skill than required to put together a remote control car

Having said that, a non nuclear dirty bomb is far more possible, i.e. nuclear material but no nuclear explosion. Just spread a lot of nasty radioactive stuff over a reasonably large area (a few square miles) by blowing it up with "TNT". This is going to give you the Chenobyl affect I mentioned, a "small" contaminated area that has to be evacuated.

In either case, getting hold of sufficient radioactive material and transporting it about is not that simple. Possible, but not easy.

To have a real effect (i.e. to lead to complete break down of law and order) they would need a number of devices detonated in all the major cities (not easy to co-ordinate)

So I think it is more likely to be small scale chemical based attacks (far easier to produce, can be home made from raw materials, may not be as effective a sarin and the like, but still nasty) and triggered in confined spaces such as the underground.

This is terrorism after all while they can cause a great deal of isolated devastation, I don't think they could hit a big enough area in a co-ordinated manner without be detected in advance, but that's just my opinion

fast bloke

erm - that is a nuclear dirty bomb

OllyK

Gee picky picky.

Original Quote: "Having said that, a non nuclear dirty bomb is far more possible, i.e. nuclear material but no nuclear explosion."

Revised: "Having said that a bomb involving the dispersal of radioactive material by means of conventional explosives rather than nuclear detonation is far more possible"

Happy now?

imlach

Err...OllyK, that IS a dirty bomb

imlach

OllyK - I think it's because you implied I was referring to a nuclear bomb - I was not, I was referring to a dirty bomb - which is radioactive material spread by conventional explosives.

OllyK

See my clarification above - please note when I said "non-nuclear" I was referring to the detonation in this context, hence the "i.e." to then clarify in the same sentence. Gee!!

imlach

I also think ANY dirty bomb detonated in either the USA or Europe, no matter how small, would cause mayhem, fear, and panic.

That is real effect.

fast bloke

agreed - imagine if anywhere inside the M25 became a no go zone for the next 400 years

imlach

OK, but given we were talking about dirty bombs, and you immediately responsed about nuclear devices, it seemed your understanding of dirty bombs was flawed

OllyK

I mentioned a standard nuclear device and suggested that was unlikely. I said a dirty bomb is MORE likely, but still quite a long shot and certainly for it to contaminate more than a few "city blocks". While there is plenty of radioactive material about, in schools, hospitals and so on, it isn't of the sort that is suited for such a device.

So in summary:
Nuclear Explosion - very unlikely
Localised dirty bomb - more likely
Small scale chemical attack - even more likely
Small scale conventional explosive attack - highly likely

The chances of the very fabric of society being torn to shreds and martial law coming in to play?? Almost 0.

OllyK

Absolutely - but would matty01 still have to pay his mortgage?? I am afraid so

OllyK

That is either one Massive bomb or an awful lot of small ones. I think it very unlikely the (significant) spread would be anything like that scale. Think about a car bomb full of explosives and the zone affected. Now I admit the idea is to get the stuff up in to the atmosphere so that the winds carry the contaminant about, but it still isn't going to cover that kind of area.

fast bloke

so it three post you go from not being able to differentiate between a nuclear explosion and a dirty bomb to being an expert on particle distribution

OllyK

Where was I unable to differentiate?

So technically "non-nuclear dirty bomb" is correct. As I also clarified in the same sentence "i.e. nuclear material but no nuclear explosion". Still not confused or contradicting what I have already said, although it seems you may well be

Seems reasonable to suggest that the entire area within the M25 would not be affected with a single device as I stated.

imlach

...because when I started talking about dirty bombs, you started talking about nuclear explosions

OllyK

OK so you could accuse me of providing additional (potentially irrelevant information) before I mentioned dirty bombs, but where did I fail to differentiate. I think I made quite a clear distinction by saying the 2 were very different and even explaining why. But there ya go

OllyK

Looks like this is where it all went pair shaped:

Originally Posted by OllyK
I A Radio / nuclear attack would be far more worrying, especially a dirty bomb where the effects could last for centuries, in which case you would end up with a Chenobyl unless several were detonated in which case a job will be the least of your worries.

Originally Posted by imlach
It's only a matter of time surely.....

Dirty bombs relatively easy to make/get hold of.....and extremists who don't care about their own lives.

I had been talking about Radio (dirty) / nuclear bombs, you focused in on the "dirty bomb" element and I focused in on the "It's only a matter of time surely..." Wires suitably crossed.