Dicke C

Don't know the rules on this one. Can anybody help?

If you are having a lesson with a driving instuctor with dual controls and get done by a camera or radar, is the driver responsible for the fine/points, or the instuctor as he is still in control of the car?

I would have thought it was the instuctors fault, as you are under his supervision.

Just a thought....

Dicke C

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

Interesting question but I'd have thought that ultimately the control of the car is still in the hands of the driver.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

LOL, yeah, in your dreams!

The driver is in control of the car, learner or otherwise.

Being in control of a vehicle is defined as being in control of the speed and direction.

The instructor has no control over the direction and can only brake on the students behalf under emergency situations.

Bit harsh to cop your student's misdemeanors just cos you have a brake pedal isn't it?

I think you'll find it extremely uncommon to find that learner cars are flashed by speed/red light cameras anyway.

If they are then the instructor isn't doing his job properly.

Reffro

But the instructor can get prosecuted for talking on a hand held mobile during a lesson.

T.C

Driving Instructor still gets prosecuted for excess speed if a student gets caught speeding!

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Certain RTA offences include the phrase "cause or permit" i.e. the instructor caused or permitted the student to drive without insurance, or without an MOT.

Speeding offences and red lights etc, do not have a "cause or permit" part of the offence so I do not see how the instructor can be charged with the students offence.

The mobile phone legislation differs slightly in that the instructor/learner example is specifically mentioned, so it makes it an offence for the instructor to use a phone whilst teaching, which is common sense really.

This is all MHO, and I do stand to be corrected if someone can show me Road Traffic legislation that proves otherwise.

Jerome

According to this page on the DVLA website, the following can apply to all motoring offences:-

Aiding, Abetting, Counselling or Procuring
Offences as coded, but with the end 0 changed to 2

Causing or permitting
Offences as coded, but with the end 0 changed to 4

Inciting
Offences as coded, but with the end 0 changed to 6

talizman

iTrader: (1)

I'll state again.....

As far as I am aware, there is no Road Traffic offence that renders the instructor liable to prosecution for his student's actions.

Like I said though, I am not a traffic officer, and I stand to be corrected.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

What that means is....

If you are convicted of driving without insurance (for example), your driving licence would be endorsed with code IN10
If, however you were convicted of causing or permitting a driver to drive without insurance, then your driving licence would be endorsed with code IN14

This alternative code ONLY applies to offences that have specific "cause or permit" clauses in the legislation.

It does NOT mean that you can simply apply the extensions to ANY road traffic charge that you see fit.

Hope this clarifies.

what?!

That would make sense Talizman

talizman

iTrader: (1)

To explain it further......

Lets use a "red light" as an example.

If you run a red light, the offence is Section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

The section states that a person "driving or propelling" a vehicle who fails to comply with the indication given by the sign is guilty of an offence.

Now, "driving or propelling" is where it becomes ambiguous. To convict the instructor, you'd have to successfully argue that he or she, although in the passenger seat, was actually driving or propelling the vehicle. Unlikely.

The driver is the person driving or propelling the vehicle, no-one else.

On the other hand.... The instructor COULD be charged in circumstances where the car has no insurance.

The driver (learner) would be charged with driving without insurance.
The passenger (instructor) would be charged with causing or permitting without insurance.

You cannot "cause and permit" speeding, although some may argue that the instrcutor could avoid it by using dual controls!

"can of worms" and "too many grey areas" spring to mind!

Jerome

talizman,

Although not definitive, the following from the Speedtrap bible seems to support you:-

For the record, it is extremely difficult to find out information on this subject.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

The Road Traffic Act has been the "bible" for the majority of road traffic offences since 1988 and there has never been any mention of other parties being held reponsible for offences such as speeding or running red lights.

The fact that there is not a specific offence in "black and white" means that it cannot be an offence.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

They'll steal anything these day


[gets coat]

talizman

iTrader: (1)

I have checked with several colleagues and I can confirm that the driving instructor cannot be charged with causing or permitting the student to speed or commit other moving traffic violations.

The ONLY offences that are specific to driving instructors are-:
Supervising a learner whilst drunk/unfit through drink or drugs,
and
Supervising a learner whilst using a handheld mobile phone.

However, in England and Wales, ANYONE can be charged with aiding, abetting or counselling a driver to commit offences.
This is a very vaugue area of the law, but basically any passenger, be they a driving instructor or not, can lawfully be prosecuted for encouraging the driver to commit offences.

How you would go about proving this is another matter, but it is possible.

Ray_li

not related but i never see taxis getting pulled for speeding or jumping red lights

talizman

iTrader: (1)

I agree, and they are often the worst offenders.

GaryK

the way some of em drive they should be!