wrxtankie

Yep just heard it on Sky news, D.O.T want them banned as its beleived they encourage drivers to speed.

Obviously no one in the DOT have tried one as they bleep at you constantly

Oh well not like the cars exactly legal anyway

Sorry if its all, Secure for dive 5 degrees down bubble.

little'un

iTrader: (9)

Duh! typical of the Department of ****....


So do you think the manufacturers of Road Angel, Geodesy etc will have something to say about this?

How come when there are a quantity of police forces who think they are a good idea - bullied motorist again.

Muppets

corradoboy

They might be able to ban laser and radar detectors, but GPS based systems they don't stand a chance. How can they say it's illegal for your satnav to issue a beep at any specific waypoint

They don't give a $hit about road safety, they just realise it's eating into their profits

hedgehog

It is interesting that they only want the laser and radar ones banned, the GPS ones have not been mentioned.

I suspect there is a very good reason for this: it is to get drivers used to the concept of having a GPS system in their cars as GPS in association with number plate tagging is going to be used to track your every movement and also for road charging. At £1.45 per mile they are keen that people will accept the concept of GPS systems in their car so I guess they are banning all other detectors so that "keen motorists" will actually buy their own GPS systems.

This can then be used to fight any arguments about the disadvantages of GPS based speed control systems which you will soon be required to have fitted. "If you were already doing it manually then an automatic system can't be a bad thing" they will say.

In the mean time huge speeding fine income is being used to put the infrastructure in place for this personal mobility management system. We are being forced by police to pay for our own demise so fight it all the way.

BuRR

So the police now make the laws in this country do they??

little'un

iTrader: (9)

Even if they don't get banned what's to stop an extortionate amount for membership fees being charged and they cream their % off.

I've only heard that they are looking to do this - or is this a done deal?

Neanderthal

iTrader: (6)

I thought a survey had been done (I even remember taking part in it) where owners of 'detectors' were actually more aware of their speed than people without them. They won't be able to ban GPS baased systems as they aren't detecting anything?

BAH

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040716/344/ey55n.html

Jamo

iTrader: (23)

time to get one bought and find a good place out of sight to put it then me thinks.

in fact buy 10 and sell them for loads later

jamo

Gary C

How is GPS going to do this, its a one way system. Your mobile phone however can be used to track your every movment

Nexuas

Why? Not enough money in it? Not like that would save any lives?

Iain Young

The same way as it does for tracker devices (Rac trackstar etc). As soon as my car is moved, they can find out exactly where it is from their control room, within a few seconds. Likewise, all Securicor vans etc have these devices fitted so that the hq can keep tabs on where they are. I believe the army uses the same system now to keep track of their vehicles being drivern from base to base as well.

The technology is out there.....

GarethE

iTrader: (1)

I thought that tracker devices emitted a signal which was recieved and sent on to the tracking centre, whereas GPS used the signal sent out by the satellites to triangulate its position, therefore the GPS detectors dont actually send any info out.

SamUK

iTrader: (1)

£1000 and 6 Points!!! What planet are these people on!

Road Angel is ok...

See Link:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/traffi...ing%20Standard

olliecampbell

iTrader: (3)

Oh dear, doesnt look good. Theyve done it on the continent so its possible.

Iain Young

Don't know how it works, but I know it's the technology they were talking about putting into cars for the plate logging / road charges stuff. I just assumed it used GPS to triangulate the position, then beamed this back to the control centre via a radio signal of some sort.

Iain Young

In France you can get fined for just having one in the car, even if it's in the boot and not plugged in.

Doesn't bother me though as I don't usually go over the speed limit on normal roads. I save that for the track - much more fun and safer

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

And just like all those people who owned gas-cartridge air weapons, which were legal when they bought them, you'll get no compensation for handing one in when they just decide to change the law


Fekkers.

The sooner Lying Labour are f*cked off, the better we'll all be

little'un

iTrader: (9)

I don't tend to speed on roads in built up areas - but it's cameras like Truvelo which I find catch you out more and there are those Gatso's still not painted and those hidden behind trees / walls etc. One in Reading for instance - if anyone knows the one I am talking about on the Basingstoke Road coming down to the roundabout near the Oracle.

What gives them the right - again I feel like we're getting walked over yet again. butt heads

What can you do??? suggestions on a postcard

Gary C

A GPS system uses the phase difference (IIRC) between syncronised satellites in geo orbit to calculate the position and is totally passive, you cannot be located by it.
A Tracker is and active unit, it sends out a location signal.

hedgehog

The GPS system is used to control your car, it communicates only with your ECU.

The tag in your number plate is used to track your movements for road charging by means of "detectors" placed at the roadside.

There is currently a "pilot" of the GPS system, which will be called "Intelligent Speed Adaptation" going on, I know that Leeds University have 20 Fabias fitted with it and there may well be other trials going on. This system will limit your speed as deemed necessary by the authorities, so it will be impossible to exceed the posted limit and your car may also be forced to slow down for "dangerous" corners and the like.

I would expect that the GPS system and the number plate tag system might be "linked" in the sense that they will talk to each other. So, your engine might be cut if the GPS system decides that your tag isn't working because it hasn't just communicated with a roadside detector that the GPS knows the position of. Likewise the number plate tag system is likely to cross check with the GPS, just to make sure you haven't been modifying anything. I'd guess that if you travel 5 miles in 4 minutes in a National Speed Limit then the number plate tag will also cut your engine and assume that you have disabled your Intelligent Speed Adaptation.

Now, all this doesn't fully explain why they want to ban laser and radar detectors but my guess is that they are doing it just so more people buy GPS speed governing systems. Once that has become accepted by motorists it will then be forced upon everyone, except those with cars too old to have an ECU I guess. By fitting our own GPS speed governing systems (even if the governing involves you manually slowing down) we open to door on the government to force us to do it.

hedgehog

I didn't say that the police made the laws, just that they were enforcing them.

In truth the police have the option, the CC of Durham rejects cameras as a method of enforcement and does not have a camera partnership. He doesn't have any cameras despite considerable political pressure to install them. His county also has accident and fatality figures per mile driven that are considerably lower than the UK average.

In other counties the police, or at least the CC under political pressure, has forced motorists to run the gauntlet of a range of vans, cars and cameras all aimed at raising the funds to install an infrastructure to limit our personal mobility. In the mean time the fatality rates are actually rising in the counties with the most cameras.

I would guess that the average policeman in the street isn't dead keen to be part of this, and the Federation have expressed these reservations, but that police are a major part of the camera partnerships in every county with such a partnership is not in question. Neither is it in question that the CC in Durham has prevented the formation of a partnership and has embarked upon a more holistic approach to road safety which is very sucessful.

GarethE

iTrader: (1)

There seems to be a big mis understanding of what and how GPS works here.

As I understand it GPS uses the signal emitted from 24 satellites to pin point your position on the Earths surface...it does not communicate in any way with those satellites so there is no way of anyone else knowing your position (as Gary C mentioned).
The confusion arises when other systems, such as tracking systems, use the information generated by the GPS to relate your location to a tracking centre so that it can interact with their systems whether it be for security, tracking or speed monitoring.

This is why they can differentiate between a speed trap detector which picks up the signals from the Gatso etc, and one which happens to know the loctations of cameras (whether active or not) and other safety related locations (like schools) relative to your position.

I've just replaced my Valentine One detector with a Micro Road Pilot GPS based system, partly because I expected some form of legislation, and also the GPS will pick up all types of cameras rather than the traditional signal emitters such as Gatso.

I am not in the least worried about the 'authorities' tracking my speed using GPS (cos they can't ), although, as rightly mentioned here, the GPS system could easily be used in the future to govern the speed of vehicles, but not with out a specific device within the car to allow it.

GPS will only provide your position on the surface of the Earth to the unit recieving the signals from the satellite...how that information is used is a different story.

hedgehog

The intention is to have a network of roadside detectors which will detect, and perhaps even communicate with, a tag in your number plate. One of the reasons for these detectors will be to enforce the new road charging system. As you rightly say Gareth GPS does not magically beam your position information to anywhere and so can only be used to control the speed of your car through the ECU. It is possible, though I suspect unlikely, that your number plate tag might download GPS data at each of the road side detectors.

As I tried to point out the motorist is facing two evils here but it is my belief that the government wants to "encourage" us to have GPS systems in our cars as soon it will be illegal to do otherwise.

I would guess that, in the initial stages of the introduction, you will be allowed to opt out of the scheme but it is my understanding, and we have already seen similar systems, that the insurance companies will be involved. So, when you come to renew the insurance on your scooby you will be offered a price similar to your current quote if you fit a GPS speed limiter or you will be offered a price that is 10 times your current quote if you don't fit a GPS speed limiter. After all "speed kills" and the best way to ensure safety is for your government to have control over your speed at all times.

There have been schemes (there was one here in Ireland which may still be continuing) where young people had to download the GPS data of every trip to their insurance company in order to get insurance at all. This data could, in future, be consolodated against the number plate tag information to ensure that you didn't manage to "disable" the GPS system at any point on a trip.

Please take the time to read the paper and note that the language is that of a "done deal" and that they are keen on the most extreme system with active braking and random slowing down at points deemed "dangerous" by some cycle riding green nutter etc. to control speed:

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd...ceed/00152.pdf

Ah, you cry, but that is a US site. Here is the UK site at Leeds. Do not be alarmed, be very, very frightened:

http://www.its.leeds.ac.uk/projects/ISA/index.htm

Even the Parlaimentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety can't wait to get it installed:

http://www.pacts.org.uk/policy/brief...SAbriefing.htm

Dracoro

The problem the authorities have is that speeding itself doesn't kill many people. 7.3% last time I checked. So they install these systems that stop people speeding full stop. Then we will still have about 3000 deaths still on our roads. Then there will really be public uproar as the general public realise that speeding itself wasn't the cause of all these deaths after all. Political suicide and no income as no-ones speeding, they lose both ways

hedgehog

I suspect 7.3% of accidents are attributed to speeding. However only about 3% occur at a speed in excess of the posted limit. Of these 3% police estimate that at least 40% have other factors involved such as the car being stolen.

So, in truth the Intelligent Speed Adaptation system will only address about 1% or 2% of accidents. Perhaps the government are stupid and can't see this, or perhaps they know this but just want control? Pick an answer that suits you I suppose.

However, it is unlikely to be political suicide. Currently the counties with the most cameras are actually seeing increasing deaths on the roads but do you see the government getting too concerned about this? Do you see them disbanding the camera partnerships?

Personally I suspect that the camera partnerships are a forerunner to the "Department of Personal Mobility" and it will be their job to ensure that you have as little personal mobility as possible. I am sure they will be especially upset by people like us driving "fast" cars and will also be horrified that you can drive from Glasgow to Inverness without asking their permission and with them having, currently, no record of the journey.

GarethE

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for clarifying Hedgehog, I see what you mean.

The technology is certainly there and while it doesn't look good for the sale of new cars in the future, I'm not going to lose sleep over it at the moment. Trying to retro fit a system like that to every car would be impossible, and it would take a serious amount of time to install all the necessary equipment at every location.

I'm not disputing the plans and possibilities, but the practicalities are something else

hedgehog

The government have said that they are going to deal with the practicalities, hence why I suspect the camera partnerships will soon be "united" to form an organisation to control our personal mobility. This may explain why some are spending a fortune on large offices for example.

Just be careful about not losing sleep over it, as you are likely to be an owner of a "performance" car you may only be 1 or 2 more insurance renewals away from having to have ISA fitted to get insurance. It is likely the situation will be similar to the current requirement to have a Tracker system on some cars and with some companies for example. There are already precidents and similar schemes in other EU countries so this could arrive very quickly indeed.

At the very least let any politician, local or national, with whom you have contact know that you will be voting for the person who is most motorist friendly at the next general and any local elections. Impress upon them that you will not be having the government fit remote control to your car. Even better sit down and write to your local MP and let them know what is going on and why they should stop it or find themselves out of a job. 23 million motorists are also voters in this country and we need to start putting the pressure on before there is no motoring left to lose sleep over.

GarethE

iTrader: (1)

Fair point, well put .....you're not a politician by any chance are you, cos you could certainly persuade me to take on your point of view

Gareth

RB5_245

What's needed is a huge public demonstration on the matter (this, fuel price etc etc).

I'd vote for the **** party if they were 'motorist friendly'

Dave