tiggers

This is worth a read, especially the bit about reality TV and binge drinking - how true (sadly).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3856059.stm

tiggers.

Faire D'Income

Tiggers, this is just the usual bull**** that the English love to lap up and have a bloody good whinge about whilst concentrating on the negative aspects of any sporting achievements.

Let's completely forget that we have a Rugby team who are World Champions.

Let's completely forget that just over a month ago, the Cricket team beat both the Windies and New Zealand in Test Matches.

Let's completely forget that Tim Henman is ranked number five in the world and has one major tournaments.

I could go on but I'm sure you get my point. Until we start to celebrate and cultivate sporting success then we're always going to adopt a losing mentality - you only have to look to the last Olympics to recognise that money that is invested in sport produces results, albeit Lottery funding, and if you combine that with some positive attitudes then sporting success will not be far behind.

Unfortunately, people in this country love to whinge and moan about things without actually doing anything about it.

SiPie

Looks like the team itself has forgotten already .... if recent performances down under are anything to go by





.... Now, where is this thread heading ?

camk

Spot on, we just need to readjust the what is good level a bit and not imagine England will win everything they enter. Which fuelled by the media frenzy always seems to be the case.

ChrisB

Seen as the rugby team that toured is much changed from the World Champions, that's easy to understand We're still World Champions until the next RWC

SiPie

Of course it is ... It's all about peaking at the right time and being **** for the other 3 and a half years

Even we've got a chance of beating you at the moment

ChrisB

We ain't that bad are we?

SiPie

You can't be... it just ain't possible

tiggers

My apologies as maybe I should have made my position clear on this one. I posted it mainly as a discussion point. The sport bit I don't have a care about as it is of little consequence to me whether the England teams win at football, cricket, rugby or whatever - it doesn't make me more or less of a person whether the team of the nation I have had the misfortune to be born into wins a game or not although it seems I am in a minority on this one after the recent mindless outpourings regarding Engalnd's Euro 2004 exit.

The points that did interest me (and to which my comment related) were the comments at the bottom of article re. binge drinking and reality TV. Not so much what they are saying as we have heard it before, but the fact they are now being raised in articles on social comment regarding England - must be some truth in it I guess.

Just my 2 cents worth,

tiggers.

Ted Maul

its a shame tiggers that you are not proud to have been born in this country. This country has a lot to be proud of.

Faire D'Income

Well, you've just illustrated my point perfectly by omitting to mention that this is the first time in five encounters that Australia have beaten an England team. Take the last four matches between England and New Zealand and it's honours even and you also forgot to mention that England were ranked Number One in the world for nigh on two years so it's certainly not a case of being **** for three and a half years. England peaked at Lansdowne road last year, well before the World Cup in which they didn't play to their capabilities despite winning it so I'd say they are a pretty successful side. They also beat Scotland in the Six Nations earlier this year - but then so did everyone else.



Instead of moaning about it, we need to develop a national infrastructure of sporting acadamies (similar to what the Aussies have) and chuck a load of money at it consistently. Pull in some commercial sponsorship, some really good quality coaching and within five years we'd start to see some results.

If that could be done and the English would shake of this "it's the taking part, that counts" mentality we'd be punching well above our weight as they do in Oz.

Faire D'Income

Again, this is typical English navel gazing - ooh, let's celebrate something negative. The binge drinking is easy to sort out - extend the opening hours. One of the most powerful reasons for excessive boozing in this country is that people want an instant hit from alcohol and aren't allowed the time to drink in. Extend the opening hours and people out for a good time won't feel the pressure to get pissed as soon as possible when they know they more or less have all day to do it. You only have to look at the culture in Spain, for instance, to know that this works as they are out partying all night probably drinking more than we do but in a greater timespan with the accompaniment of food such as Tapas.

I don't have a ready answer for reality TV as I detest most of the programmes anyway but I would point out it's not unique to England - the rest of the developed world is as addicted as we are.

SiPie

Faire D'Income

You are a total plonker mate

Check my profile.... ie. The bit that says SCOTLAND

You honestly think I've ommitted to mention anything that makes you guys look any better than you already are

Faire D'Income

No, I realised you're Scottish but you guys are as bad as us for this type of thinking. I'm illustrating the point by concentrating on the positives rather than the negatives.

SiPie

No... that's where you are wrong mate...we are justified in thinking like that

You see.......We are **** at most sports at the moment and we know it (ladies curling /snooker excluded) ... you guys have still to realise it

PS Plonker bit retracted

tiggers

This is typical English sticking your head in the sand.

Licensing hours won't make any difference at all. In the town near me they brawl at 11 when the bars shut, in Manchester they brawl at 2/3 am when the clubs shut. You mention Spain - the English seem more than happy to brawl over there when on holiday in Benidorm and the likes so how do you figure opening hours will make any difference?

Faire D'Income

But it needn't be this way. It wasn't too many years ago that Scotland produced some brilliant Rugby sides, so why can't that be achieved again? If Australia can punch well above their weight with a population of 20 million, then there's no reason why the UK (or Scotland with a population of what, 10 million) cannot field good quality teams with the right level of investment.

As for your comment about us guys still having to realise it, I thought that what what this thread was about?

Faire D'Income

It's not sticking your head in the sand, that would be applicable if I was pretending it didn't happen and wasn't prepared to offer any solutions.

Extending the licensing hours isn't the only solution as they're needs to be a greater level of public education as to the harms of alcohol and some other ideas that I haven't thought of. Extended licensing would help with public disorder, in my opinion, as you wouldn't suddenly have this mass of pissed up people suddenly being dumped on the streets - people would start and finish drinking at different times, thus avoiding potential flash points. It's not perfect but it seems to work in other countries so I can't see why it wouldn't operate well here.

Your point about some English people brawling in Spain is well made but it's a minority, not the majority. You never hear about holidaymakers who go to Spain, have a perfectly good time, enjoy their booze and come home happy and relaxed. I'm not denying it happens but instead of moaning about it, why not offer some solutions?

SiPie

It's around 5 million..

Agree however, that there is no reason why we can't compete at the top level again... sure we will at some point as soon as the younger generations put down their joypads and get back up the park and start playing real football and rugby ...

I blame the media

Zeolite

"Yeah like we win lots of things don't we!

Bo**ocks!

Jye

And deep fried mars bars

tiggers

Fair D'Income,

I agree with you that offering some solutions is the way forward and I think you're on the way with some of what you suggest. The problem is you're rare in that you are prepaed to admit there is a problem whereas many people just deny it happens hence my head in the sand comment which upon reflection was a little out of order.

To me the biggest problem in the UK with drinking is this notion that the more you can drink the tougher you are - if we could remove that ridiculous notion I think we may stand a chance. Trouble is it is so engrained right the way through society and in all age groups that it's a difficult one to combat. Coupled to this is the way the British and in particular the English seem to go out with the sole purpose of getting drunk. If the notion that to have a good time you have to get drunk could also be removed the situation would be a lot different I think.

The problem is to do this is going to require years of education, but if it is what needs to happen then it should start now. I think more stringent alcohol/age laws would be a good idea as well with the use of ID cards like in the US. Of course this would need to be backed up by punishment for those that falsify ID's and those publicans/ bar owners that choose to ignore them.

tiggers.

ajm

I believe the exact opposite. A more relaxed approach to alcohol and licencing hours such as in Europe will remove the novelty factor of drinking. The more illicit alcohol is made the more people will want it and the greater the lengths they will go to get it.

tiggers

No I'm not talking about licensing hours even though I don't really believe changing them will have much effect. I'm talking about ensuring the people don't drink alchol if they're under age and maybe even raising the age at the same time.

It seems to work OK in other countries. Of course I still think the whole tough man attitude surrounding alcohol is the bigegst issue, but I'm really not sure how to change that.

ajm

[QUOTE=tiggers]I'm talking about ensuring the people don't drink alchol if they're under age and maybe even raising the age at the same time.
QUOTE]

Again, I believe that this will just lead to glamourising alcohol all the more. Underage drinkers get hold of alcohol now, it would just mean the gangs of youths hanging around on street corners drinking will increase in size aswell as age!

Exposure to alcohol in a sensible way whilst young removes the mystique, such that when they are old enough to buy as much as they want the novelty has gone and it isn't such a big deal.

Booze isn't the root cause of bad behaviour. It increases the chance of bad behaviour admittedly, but for every drunken lout there are many more that can get drunk without causing a riot! If people had respect for the law then they wouldn't behave like they do, drunk or not.

For example, the Germans can down as much (if not more?) beer than we do without causing riots because the people generally have more respect when sober, therefore it follows that they have more respect when they are drunk!

tiggers

Don't disagree with anything you've said there apart from your first paragraph. If the exposure to alcohol is treated in the right way and the law allows it to be done sensibly then it would work.

The problem is that in the uK we have no sensible laws regaridng age and alcohol it's all or nothing. We need a process whereby young people can be legally introduced to alcohol in a gradual manner.

As for underage drinkers getting hold of alcohol now of course they do as the laws that exist are not enforced like so many laws in the UK. In the US if a licensee is found to be serving underage drinkers the law comes down on them pretty hard whereas here nothing really happens.

As for the mystique remove the silly notions about alcohol and macho attitudes and you'd be half way there.

ajm

That's a first! I detect a caveat coming along...

There she is!

Raising the legal age (to 21 say) isn't going to affect the numbers of existing underage drinkers. All it will do is push the 18-20 yr old drinkers out of the pubs and onto the street corners with the rest of them!

tiggers

Stop it - you're making me laugh now Don't spoil it as we're nearly in agreement here

In the UK at the moment you're probably right partly as the police seem unable or unwilling to enforce the law as regards underage drinking.

I hear what you're saying , but I think with better law enforcement, better education, changes to the law allowing gradual introduction to alcohol for young people and a society where less kudos is given to alcohol consumption the problem of alcohol related violence amongst young people might decline significantly.

Brendan Hughes

News reports in the last day or two show the Met (that's in London ) will be cracking down hard on binge drinking, and bars that encourage it.

Abdabz

Introducing extend licensing will have no positive effect on binge drinking whatsoever.
When I was 18, or now when I'm somewhat older (ahem) and I went out on the pop, I could buy booze from an establishment from 11.30am through to 2am - happy days - The only day I wasnt allowed a 14 1/2 hour drinking sessions was on a Sunday . Now I can binge drink with the best of em but 6 days a week at 14 hours a go is enough for anyone..

By extending the licensing laws beyond 2/3 am (which most town centre bars / clubs operate) what will be gained? Increased cost to police the surplus of already plastered rabble wandering the streets at 5am looking for a pint? Errm longer hours for taxi drivers?
If you go out boozin - not even on a massive binge - how knackered are you after 2am?
Its a myth boys and girls and when I'm dead and buried I will let you see my liver for evidence .