Party Bird

Not sure who can help me out with this situation, any lawyers, solicitors or just generally anyone who may know or can advise me please.

I have just got off the phone to a very worried friend of mine. She has told me in complete confidence, but has asked for my advice, and to be honest i wasnt sure where else to start apart from on here!!

Her house was raided yesterday morning by the police and her fathers computer had been confiscated by the police. The police are undergoing a large child pornography operation called 'Operation Or' and it turned out that her father had logged onto some site in 1999 and paid for something with his credit card on this site. Now, no-one knows (apart from himself of course) if this was just regurlar **** or something worse. As you can imagine my friends mum has taken it very badly and does not know what to think.

What my friend whats to know is, how far would it have to have gone to take away his computer? Is it because they are pretty sure that there was something dodgy brought on his credit card, as the police have caught the big nasty guy behind this child **** scam, and it seems to have stemed from that. So i presume that the police are investigating whoevers credit card records they found. My friend is obviously very upset, as it could be nothing, but it has been a lot of heart ache caused if it is nothing. But obviously if it isnt, will her father face a prison sentenance?

It has taken since 1999 for the police to contact her father so by the sounds of it its quite a big operation. He did actually but a new computer in 2000 and when the police came round, he gave them that one. To save his skin or what i dont know. But unfortuantley for her dad, her mum found the old compuiter in the loft and has taken that to the police station, as that would be the one they needed to look at.

As i said before, this is a lot of heart ache if it is nothing, but she is very scared as to what will happen if it is something worse. I'd appreciate anyone's help on this please.

ProperCharlie

i don't think you would get prison for accessing a dodgy site. you could have been unaware of the exact nature of its contents. however, if they find a sh*tload of cached or stored images, then prison would be likely, i guess. either way, probably end up on the sex offenders register. not a good one for the CV, is it?

Jiggerypokery

Her mum did the right thing, in my opinion.

I'm not sure there is much anyone can do at the moment, just wait and see what the police find.

Wish

iTrader: (2)

I would think that its more serious than just nothing at all.
Police dont come round and take your computer way with out good reason.

Big Col

Isn't this the same operation that caught Pete Townshend?

If it is the people on that list used their credit card to access a website containing images of child pornography.

info from BBC News website here

douglasb

If he's given credit card details, he didn't just hit a dodgy link on a different website and leave it immediately.

I'm not an expert on **** sites, but I'd expect that the more "specialist" concentrate on particular specialisms. (Something akin to printed ****. "Playboy" would be a bit different from "Rubber News" - assuming such a title exists).

As he's given credit card details to a site that the police are interested in, it doesn't look too good.

Sorry.

HankScorpio

The US investigation that led Operation Ore busted one particular site and got the CC of everyone who had paid for access. The FBI forwarded all the UK based users to the UK and hence they are being followed up.
I believe there were over 6000 originally and "higher risk" people like convicted paedo's and people who worked with children were targeted first.
That would explain why it's taken so long to reach this guy.

Some interestig details here:
http://www.hamiltons-solicitors.co.u...ration-ore.htm

Chrisgr31

Operation Or (e) is as has been stated the one that caught Pete Townsend out. Personally I don't believe that your friends mum should have taken the old PC round, assumming it has been in the attic since 2000 and not used.

If your friends father was interested in kiddie **** I would assume that he would have accessed the material since 2000 and therefore the evidence will be on his current PC. If he accessed the site in 1999 (having entered his credit card details) but left immediately and has not been back since the evidence could still be on his old machine and he could be in trouble. Without the PC the police might find it difficult to prove that it was him, even if it was by mistake.

Assumming it was a one off I think he might get off, but if any evidence is found he will probably get a caution and possibly an entry on the Sex Offenders Register, which would effectively wreck his life for job applications etc.

If they find any materail on his current PC I'd suggest he doesn'f stand a chance as it will prove regular intent.

beemerboy

Hmm tricky one.
the thing is, plod would probably not require a PC if it was credit card fraud or a **** ring, from a finacial point of view, and looking at choppers and muff on appropriatly mature enough people is not in itself an offence.
but like mentioned here, a few gig of underage or dodgy images stored could shed another angle here.
how come you know that much info?
i'd have thought this would be kept under one's hat.

feel sorry for the guy if he's innocent, as mud sticks, but if he's got gary glitter tendencies, then he'll prob get it in the neck.

as always, its the people around that suffer most...

hope it works out

Dazza

WRX Wannabe

Surley if it was a regular **** site(no child related) the police would have done their checks as to the content of the site?

There must be 100000's of people who have logged onto **** site's( NOT CHILD RELATED) and have loads of cache links stored on their pc's.

It's the paying to join/get pics from such a site that will be the problem

I hope your friend has some good news to come!

bartmanuk

how do u work that one out chris?

IMHO this bloke seems to have something to hide by not giving them the right pc in the first place,and maybe his missus knows something she thought the police should know,i cant see the old bill making a mistake with something so sensitive,you cant give you credit card details by accident...

BM

farmer1

Isn't this the operation they had a programme on BBC2 about a couple of months ago. Investigating a company called landslide.???

I also believe the guy set up PayPal???

BuRR

What area does this person live? (roughly)

Alan C

The Police have admitted that they are not targetting the 'accidental' viewing of such material, as the amount of people this hapens too is way too much for them to cope with, especialy with some of the inocuous links that can appear in Hormail.

Operation Ore was setup on the back of CC details raided from a server in the states. As mentioned, some 6500 users were tracked back here from those CC's. The police spent a lot of time sifting through the names and prioritised them in order of known offenders, areas where the person had access to children through to the one time visitor. Then they went knocking.

It is procedure to remove all media where images could be stored. VHS, DVD, CD, Hard drive floppy etc. and got through every byte with a fine tooth comb. Rest assured, if they need to, they will recover stuff that was wiped with 'washer' prgrammes (including the Guttman method, but this is another lecture ) and multiple reformats.

The technology behind forensic data recovery is way in advance of any commercially available software. You have been warned.

It does seem that he had something to hide. Why the PC in the loft?
If so and they find it, then it does depend on many factors. How much he has, how long it's been there and whether any was taken by himself or just stored etc etc...

So it's hard to tell.. either way, his cc to the site is hard evidence that he knew what he was doing. Even Pete townsend who had a pretty convincing reason ended up on the register... with his wrist slapped.. but then he is a millionaire and doesn't need to work.

It does not look good either way..

Moral is... don't view this stuff.. if you do, then melt your Hard disks afterwards.

Dracoro

In addition to what's already been said, the site he paid for could've been a 'regular' **** site that also happened to have some child **** on it so not necessarily a child **** site. However the police, once they've scanned the PC, will find out if he's downloaded any or much child ****. On balance they should be able to ascertain whether or not he was using the site for child **** or for the regular stuff.

Given how sensitive the issue is, I would think the police will be digilent and will want to be certain they're catching the correct people. Basically the guy has to be as honest as possible and see what happens.

Basically (in theory), if he's done nothing wrong he should have nothing to worry about.

BuRR

Alan C .... have we already met? If not, I wouldn't mind a chat sometime?

BuRR

In addition to my last ... with all due respect to all other authors in this thread, Alan C is nearest the mark for accuracy in relation to the advice given. I would be very cautious in acting on information obtained from this or any other forum, and instead seek professional legal advice.

douglasb

What do most people do with their old PC when they buy a new one? Once I'd copied anything of interest off my old PC it went straight to the loft as (1) it was worth about four fifths of F all so no point in selling it, (2) schools and charities are probably not interested in a 286 with a 40MB hard drive, so I couldn't even give it away!

Nothing sinister there. (Don't suppose that such a machine would be any use for surfing the **** sites).

BuRR

Maybe not, but looking at the dates its the prime suspect!

douglasb

BuRR - I was suggesting that there isn't necessarily anything sinister about putting an old PC in the loft and used my own experience as an example. I completely agree that in the case of Party Bird's friend's dad the PC in the loft may have incriminating files on it and (bearing in mind the dates) needs to be examined as well as the current PC.

Doug

BuRR

np.

HankScorpio

Just to be pedantic, Alan C's only advice was:
"don't view this stuff.. if you do, then melt your Hard disks afterwards."
The first bit I agree with, the second bit should never come into it....

But yes, the info is accurate and well explained.

EddScott

IIRC I watched a program on TV which was about the guy who hosted these sites. He basically came up with a secure way of handling credit card payments and so (obviously when the net is involved) he decided to use it as a stepping stone for those wanting to view ****.

Think the guy became a millionaire in about a fortnight or something silly. Not all site had pictures of underage children but his company did nothing to control what was on these sites and he just pocketed a tidy commision - somthing like the AVS/AVS gold passwords were all through his company.

Needless to say he's now in jail and the FBI and UK police have to check every person on the companies database. Its actually this thrid party company that the names have come from rather than the individual sites. With this in mind its not a foregone conclusion that the sites visited by any individual were orientated to child pornography and the one password allowed access to various sites.

Alan C

Burr. Possibly.

PM or e-mail me, I'll be happy to discuss anything, within reason

It's difficult to be anymore accurate in this particular area without going into a lot more detail. Which is beyond this forum.

Needless to say I don't know everything about this operation and I haven't covered everything, as a lot of technical (my particular area) and legal areas have been left out, which doesn't really help; But Burr is right, get yourself some professional help and guidance rather than taking any word on here as verbatim, however accurate, good or well intentioned the advice appears to be.

As for the PC in the loft? I have afew old PC's knocking about myself, I'm not saying that by doing so I, or anyone else, have some 'bad' stuff on there. But from the information given, it does appear that the timing is a little suspect.

BuRR

OK... bad choce of phrase, but thanks. Do you have any experience in this field?

Ray_li

Burr. Arrest them all.

HankScorpio

BuRR, not specifically to this case but in previous forensic data recovery. Just been following this one...

Party Bird

Beemer Boy - The only reason i posted on here was because my friend is in a right state, and needed some advice and to be honest, i really didnt know what to say, so i thought if i posted on here, then maybe someone could lead me in the right direction to help her. Which at this moment in time is to get legal advice.

Also, regarding the computer in the loft, as a few other people said, the computer was in the loft as that's where most other stuff goes when its been replaced in the house. I know its the same at my home!!

Her mum has now taken the computer to the police station, and has been told it will take 2-3 months before they can find out what was on it. As you can imagine she is also very upset, and is pretty much at a loose end right now with what to do. Im not sure if she wants to advise him to get legal advice to be honest. She's pretty cut up at the moment. However, it could've been nothing, so until the computer comes back (which is a long wait to be honest) she's going to be at her wits end.

BuRR

Has he been arrested?

Party Bird

No not yet.

I think that they will look to see whats on the computer first and then make a decision come then. Not totally sure how it all works to be honest. 2-3 months seems an awfully long time, but if thats what it is, she'll just have to wait till then.