Dark Blue Mark

Dont know what happened to the last post

All my other fish seem to live long healthy lives, but I cant get angels to live for more than a few months.

Symptoms are always the same, Fins harden and crack, and they cant swim properly. Dont seem to get white spot or anything though.

I should do a water test as it might not be quite right.

Any tips? Its a 2 foot tank, I change out about 4" every fortnight. Treat the new tap water with Nutrafin stuff and let it sit for 10 - 20 mins before gently pouring it in.

Water temp is 77-78 degrees.

Its a well established tank of a couple of years and mostly tetras in there. Interesting how quickly they will eat each other! They must always be sizing each other up as a meal!

Help!

Its not MAF related either

MB

ajm

Definately do a water test (NH4, NO2, NO3 and pH). What you are describing definately sounds like a water quality issue rather than a disease.

do you have any pics of the damaged fins?

Edited to add: I know this is probably a stupid question but you aren't putting in marine angels instead of freshwater? You may laugh, but I have heard of it being done!!!

V45DSM

Either that, or cats...

Dark Blue Mark

Nope, definately fresh water angels! Marine ones are tempting though

Not got pics of the fins, but they crack / frey, esp the main back one, and develop white lines through them.

I dont want to infringe the SNet animal rights policy (ajm ) - but whats the reccomended method of putting one out of its misery when its clearly buggered?

MB

Dark Blue Mark

No cats in my place V45 Would have humanely shooed them away

MB

ajm

The quickest and most humane way to euthenise a fish is to instantaneously severe its spinal cord with a sharp knife in my opinion.

see http://www.fishjunkies.com/euthanization.php

Post up your water parameters and lets have a look at them though, it would be better to sort the problem first!

Dark Blue Mark

Cheers

Will get a test kit on the way home tom night.

MB

Bubba po

Spinal cords have nothing to do with music.

Poor Guy

feckin' cats

dpb

ohh .. i think it is -watch out for men in white coats to come and take you away

silverstrike

raise your temp up to 82, this should keep all diseases out, and your fish should be healthier, if not then it is a water issue.. what was the ph in the shop tank that you got them from, and what is the ph that you put them into?? do you have any plants or bogwood in the tank??

silverstrike

David Lock

If it's any consolation they are difficult fish to keep and we tried a few and they didn't make it and we are quite fussy about water quality etc. But they do look the part! Good luck - water quality and steady temperature. D

silverstrike

your right david they are hard to keep, but not as hard as discus!! but with both of these fish you have to watch what fish you are putting into the tank as they stress very easily!!

ProperCharlie

i kept them successfully for several years - they even laid and hatched eggs, but all of the young were eaten. the most important thing is a stable environment - i think i 2 ft tank is probably too small. i had a 4 ft tank with a lot of plant growth. i changed about 1 inch of water every week, and was very careful when cleaning the filter, which i only did every couple of months, (an ehiem, iirc), to clean all the media in a bucket full of water from the tank so that i didn't kill off the bacteria.

silverstrike

your right to charlie, a stable enviroment is whats needed, i had a 5 foot tank by 2 foot high with lots of plants and caves, but one wrong type of fish in the tank a bang goes your eggs!!

Dark Blue Mark

They are only smallish ones, about 2" long. I have plenty of plants and bog wood, very good filter and heater etc.. I will up the temp a bit, assuming the rams, plec and things won't mind? Total of about 10 fish, but they are all quite small, angels being the biggest. I do the filter clean in the tank water (in a bucket) it amazes me how much crap they collect!

I might upgrade to a 4" at some point, but the one I have is quite new and has a nice cabinet etc

Ta so far.

MB

Mice_Elf

What other fish do you have in the tank?
Do any of those experience any issues?
Can you get an independant water test?

Angels are quite hard to keep, but you can toughen fish up. Mine are not exactly treated as per the rulebook and are more than healthy, breeding all over the place...

Dark Blue Mark

Ok,

3 bolivian rams
1 plec
6 tetra's neons and glowlights
1 remaining Angel - gradually gaining in health

Its a peaceful tank, with a good balance in terms of where the fish like to live. They have all been in there for ages, with no bother - its just angels, which I quite like.

Ill get a test done tonight hopefully.

MB

silverstrike

you could keep those fish at 85 mate and they wouldn't bother, you could turn the tank off for a week and the plec would still be alive!! as for the bolivian rams, well they are quite nice to look at, but they tend to pick on other fish, especially ones with big fins and long tails, does your angel tend to hide away alot???

Dark Blue Mark

The rams have always been fine, they do have a pop at each other from time to time, but generally very peaceful... Not the big variety either. The angels have always seemed king of the tank, just they go quiet after a while then snuff it.

MB

Dark Blue Mark

Ok, test done:

Ph 7
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.3 ml/l max
Nitrite 5 ml/l

All looks good according to the Nutrafin instructions. Not sure on the PH, I will have to check what Mr Fish are happy in. I did do a half tank water change on Saturday unfortunately, so some of the results may have been worse before then....

MB

ProperCharlie

changing 1/2 the tank in one go is too much!

that's what i meant by keeping things stable - set up your systems and then keep change to a minimum. having a tank that is too clean is as bad as one that is too dirty.

Dark Blue Mark

Charlie, it was done quite carefully, and over about 8 hours, if that helps. The angel snuffed it before this too. The remaining one looked as though it was on the way out, but its a lot better after the change. The results above seem ok too.

Got to admit, ive never changed that much before, it was a bit of an emergency

MB

ProperCharlie

fair enough mark. all i'm saying is that you shouldn't *plan* to change that much water. one time i came home to discover that the cat had knocked the filter (external) over and one of the pipes had become detached - about 85% of the water in the tank had syphoned out, all the fish were flapping about in a couple of inches of water, including my angels which had had to learn to swim sideway in a hurry. i slowly re-introduced water over about 24 hours and there were no casualties. christ knows where all the water went - i had a look downstairs but there was no sign of it

another thing i was wondering - are the fish that you are buying healthy to start off with? if you keep losing them in the first few weeks after bringing them home, maybe they are weak or diseased when you buy them?

misty

Don't even think about marines m8! They cost more than a scoob to keep!!!
I had a 6' marine tank for 2 years, nearly wiped me out!!
Agree with silverstrike, jack the temp up to 85, that should sort it out.
dave

ProperCharlie

don't get me started about the time the rear pane of glass in my tropical marine tank broke.

at that stage i had so many tanks in my bedroom (6 no. 4 ft tanks IIRC) it was a miracle my mum's house didn't collapse. i had to move my bed into the middle of the room as all the wall space was taken up with tanks. oh, the joys of teengage over-enthusiasm.

silverstrike

mark, i'm going with charlie here, about the condition of the fish bought..are you buying from the same shop?? are there any floating fish in the tanks in the shop?( this indicates poor upkeep, if it's the odd one then fair enough!) but i must go back to what i said previous, What is the p.h in the shop tanks that you are buying from???? angels,discus etc are usually kept at around 6.2 in a fish shop, some can be taken home and thrown into a tank at 7.2+ and be perfectly fine, but others will be fine for a few days the slowly start to die!! what you want to do is to take some water down to the shop, and get him to test yours and his!!

silverstrike

ajm

Ph 7
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.3 ml/l max
Nitrite 5 ml/l <---- do you mean NitrAte here?

Doesn't look too bad although Nitrite should really be pretty much zero unless you have cleaned out the filters or something recently. What the others are saying about consistancy I will definately go along with. It would also be beneficial to compare samples with the shop, and also to take samples every week or so, so that any changes in condition can be linked to the water, if that is the cause.

If the pH is fluctuating you could try changing your substrate to buffer it, and as its an Amazonian tank you could bring the pH down a touch by adding bogwood or blackwater extract if necessary.

If your Nitrite is consistently high this can manifest itself in stressed fish, loss of form, and in extreme cases suffocation/gulping at the water surface as nitrite works on a fish by tieing up the oxygen in their blood, rather like carbon monoxide does to us.

The fact that your fish survive for a while suggests to me more a gradual deteriation away from acceptable water parameters for the particular fish rather than a response or shock to more rapidly changing parameters, but the only way to be sure is to take regular tests whilst monitoring the fish.

Dark Blue Mark

Thanks all, im soaking it all in!

My local fish specialist shut down months ago, and they were really good. My only option now is one of the dreded pet supermarkets I always check them before I buy them, and I think they're pretty hot on hiding any evidence of dead fish. Not sure if they ever bother quarantining anything though....

Charlie - LOL - tank breaking or a filter coming unstuck is my worst nightmare, all that fishy water

Misty - does feel a little chilly, so ill jack the temp up.

Silver / Charlie, good idea, i'll steal some of their water and get a sample...

Ajm, I will keep sampling, as the water change may have hidden something that might build back up. Got plenty of bogwood though. The angels do a bit of surface gulping actually, good point. Sorry, yes, the last one was Nitrate.

Ta again all,

MB

Mice_Elf

Never, ever go to Pets at Home for your fish, btw. Every single one of mine that I purchased there, with the exception of the corydoras, died within a week. All the fish that I bought elsewhere survived quite happily.

PaH have dead fish every time I go in there. They even had skeletons in one tank! (Took photos of it as I am in the process of complaining about their animal / fish treatment.)