Scooby96

Are these done on the grounds of the mother being over 30/35? by the Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust??

Diesel

I dont think so - everyone gets them. Think they are primarily to measure the length of the fundus' (for that is what they call the little chap/girl) spine and determine if it suffers from Downs' syndrome.

Quite remarkable the amount it moves about at that early age.

D
(amateur domestic medic only )

imlach

12 week scans are done for EVERY mother on the NHS.

Additional scans can be done at 18/24 weeks and later if there is a problem, or some trusts are now offering them for higher age groups, but not all....depends on your trust.

jjones

dpends on the local health authority.

some areas just do a 20 week scan.

imlach

Perhaps I should clarify - everyone will get ONE scan.

MattW

My wife had only a 19 week scan for both our 1st child and the baby she is carrying now. We paid extra for a private 12 week scan.

IIRC it is 12 weeks where the measuring of the child for downs purposes is important. this can not be done at 19-20 weeks.

Tiggs

im no expert but our 3 had 12 wks scans private for downs and normal ones later on NHS then sexing scans done private.

as i recall the downs scan can be done later but at 20wks would you not be past abortion date? thats why i assumed it was done early on.

as for sexing scans...dont bother, we paid £150 with our last to be told that we had a girl.....so when louise was born with.....non-girl bits! we had to rename him and redecorate the baby room!

T

ps- if you think naming a baby is hard try naming one that was called louise for 4 months! he was just "number 3" for 2 weeks!

Scooby96

Think its gonna be a private job then for a 12 weeker, I know some HA's do them for mothers over a certain age due to increased risks of certain things.

Its £120 privately in Tunbridge Wells or £65 in Maidstone.

BTW I think the current UK abortion limit is 22 weeks, amazing really as babies can survive if born this early!!!!!!

Scooby96

As for sexing scans - we didnt bother as the free NHS scan proved to be correct both times (girls).

Fingers crossed for a boy for the third and final time unless I can persuade her into one more!?!??

Does now mean I'm looking on autotrader for a 'people carrier'..........DONT LAUGH!

Tiggs

ahhh, but if you get scanned by the NHS in Reading they wont tell you the sex.......due to some ppls desire to abort girls.

T

Scooby96

"...some ppls"

who are they then?

Diesel

People from non caucasian races generally may be refused the sex information.

Surely you can insist that you get a 12 week scan somewhere, and out of your already paid taxes too.

The baby was so alive at this point that a decision to abort the pregnancy due to Downs at this early stage would have been severely traumatic, let alone later.

Ours was done as a matter of course in Kingston, and I must say I'm a bit shocked by this.

D

Scooby96

That is shocking

queue Poor Guy with the immigrant rants and raves

imlach

They are looking for the nuchal fold (fold of skin near back of head)....it is not generally scanned for yet in many trusts as is quite a new technique.

Most trusts still use the amniocentisis test which involves drawing off some fluid from the womb. Sadly, this carries a risk of miscarriage, and is not very accurate anyway - would you choose to abort on the basis of a not very accurate result?!

It's still not a very exact science.

Scooby96

amniocentisis carries a 1% chance of miscarriage

imlach

It does, which is quite high in reality.
Personally, the tests (including nuchal fold) are so innaccurate, that they seem pointless.

mart360

Imlach,

I beg to disagree on the neuchal scan....

my wife who is like me nearer to the big XX had a normal scan on the nhs,,,

then given the option for an amnio but instead we took the option for neuchal,,,

carried out privatly at the local bupa ...

the scan was approx 1/2 hour and covered far more than your average 10 min nhs jobby...

the imaging process was far clearer, and made a very accurate scan of which we obtained our neuchal prognosis....


suffice to say baby toby is now 14 months old,, (after several prebirth scares for bleeding)...


Mart

imlach

Actually, yes, I was wrong - nuchal fold test can be done at 11-13 week stage.

However, the nuchal fold test is still only statistics though....if they say you are at risk, it can cause stress in the pregnancy and make you worry, yet you may have a perfectly normal baby!

It is strictly a screening test. It gives no concrete answers, only statistics. A combination of measuring the nuchal fold and the mother’s age will give a new statistical probability about the possibility of Down Syndrome or other chromosomal abnormalities. Nicolaides had found that 18% of foetuses with nuchal folds above 3mm had Down’s Syndrome. The risk rose with the thickening of the fold – a measurement of 6mm meant 36 times the base risk. So, the overall risk for Down’s Syndrome at 35 is around 1 in 270. If the foetus has a nuchal fold of 6mm, then its risk becomes 1 in 7.5.

So, my point being, given it is only a statistic, would you abort on that basis if given a 1 in 7.5 chance? I doubt it, so what is the point of finding out?????

Diesel

I'm sure counselling would be given, but I find my ignorance staggering. I thought it was a cert - it bloody well needs to be...

Little Miss WRX

Topical subject this and one I (having a Downs Syndrome sister) do have strong views on.

Despite that everyone is entitled to their opinion and having a baby is one of the most major things that can happen to anyone in their life. (Don't get pedantic with me about the male side of things, you know what I mean )

My parents never went through any tests and when my sister was born, the hospital took THREE days before telling my parents that my sister was Downs. Up until then my parents were worried that there was something life threateningly wrong with her. They were offered no counselling and this was still the time when they took disabled kids off parents to lock up in mental hospitals. My parents had to fight to keep her.

Nevertheless, this did not put them off having another kid (me) nor another (my bro).

Having had the responsibility of looking after my sister as I grew up living at home it does not daunt me at all the thought of having a disabled child should I ever be daft enough to want a kid. If I ever do that I will not be having tests except for major ones such as cystic fibrosis/spina bifida in which I and my partner would have to prepare for the level of care needed for a child born with such a "disability" (I really hate that word).

I do not envy any potential parent for the dilemma that the results of any test may bring up.

All I can say is that a child with a disability is just as rewarding as a "normal" child. I hope that any pregnancy goes well for both child and mother.

Michelle.

scoobypreza

Where we live it is normal to only have one scan at around 20 weeks. But becasue I've had such a complicated pregnancy we've had scans at 7weeks, 11 weeks, 12 weeks, 20weeks and another one this week at 31 weeks and I think we'll have more before the end.
If my pregnacy was normal (and from a seeing the baby point of view) if I was only able to have a scan once I would have to pick the 20 week scan. This scan showed the most detail of the developing baby. The baby looked real for the first time and you can see more of the baby on screen. At 12 weeks the baby looked more like an alien lol But it was such a releif to see the baby at 12 weeks and know that all the early parts were ok it must be agony waiting for only one scan at 20weeks but it seems to be pretty much the norm to wait till 20weeks now.

I just wanted to add that during the nuchal scan they look for the nasal bone. They have found a link between lack of nasal bone and downs. The sonographer examines the fetal profile for the absence of the nasal bone. The nasal bone is underdeveloped in 62 percent of fetuses with Down syndrome but only in 1.2 percent of normal fetuses. I don't know if this is done at all hospitals but I'm sure it will be soon from what I've read about it it reduces the need for unnecessary amniocentesis.

A search of any of the medical or baby sites will explain it better than me I'm sure.


And just so I can show off here are a couple of our scan pics.....


7weeks


12 weeks


20 weeks

cath
mrs.scoobypreza

imlach

I quite agree with you.
Downs children (or rather people!) can have as near to normal lifes as anyone and live as long as anyone as I'm sure you know.

Without starting a whole abortion debate, to abort on the chance that your child may have downs seems a very severe decision to take. As I said before given the uncertainty in diagnosis during pregnancy, and the fact that a downs person can have a very viable life, I do feel the tests aren't as useful as people often think they are. I know some who were told they were high-risk, yet had perfectly normal children. Yet, they had 2 trimesters of worry & stress!

Obviously spina bifida/hydrocephalus are more severe disabilities, especially the latter, and many of those do not survive long after birth depending upon severity.

Tricky subject though.....

Tiggs

i'll skip the downs issue as ppl here are clearly close to the subject.....but as for non caucasasion (sp?) being those who dont get the sex....

me and my wife are white, born in Reading....our parents born in Reading.....we live in Reading. We have one girl and one boy.....i cant think of many reasons why we would not get the sex of baby number 3 from the NHS but we didnt...and in Reading you cant.

its a "treat everyone the same" policy and they base the policy on those who would abort based on the wrong sex.

T

Scooby96

Its fine to say yep we'll live with whatever but if you already have kids you have to consider the impact a disabled child might have on them, just a thought....

787b

Imlach, the post about the statistics was excellent, but of course you wouldn't simply abort based on the scan, you'd have an amniocentesis test which claims to give a definite answer.

In terms of life expectancy, it was found in 1997 that life expectancy was 49 for someone with Downs.

scoobypreza

I can add from a teachers point of view how rewarding it has been to work with several children with downs. I have had some of my most magical moments of my teaching career working with two children in particular.
Day to day life for their families have been challenging and of course there is never enough support. But I know the families would not have it any other way. I must say that my experience with them has certainly affected the way we have approached the tests that have been offered to us during my pregnancy.

Cath

imlach

....but again, given the risk of miscarriage with this invasive procedure is anywhere between 0.5% and 2% (depending on which studies you read), then a 1 in 50 risk if losing a potentially healthy baby is still quite high.

It's a very tough call.

imlach

In some respects (guessing on this one!), I'd imagine it'd perhaps have a positive impact on one's other children?

Little Miss WRX could of course give us her thoughts on this one if she felt like doing so...?

787b

We started working on the amniocentesis test carrying a 1% chance of leading to a miscarriage. After a bit you feel like an actuary talking to a bookmaker!

In the end it was all for nothing. Neither of us would wish to abort in the case of Downs. I feel a society should be judged on how it looks after its weakest members.

I'm not preaching here, just stating how I feel.

My girlfriend has taught a Downs child and when the class got off the bus, she was the only child to thank the driver. Underlines Imlach's point that a positive effect is possible.