Fatman

Do you think it would be reasonable or unreasonable that people should be required to gain 'parenting licences' before they can have children? Why? If you think that such a notion would be reasonable, what do you think should be required of people in order to gain such a licence?

ProperCharlie

can't see it being too easy to enforce. you'll never stop people from f**king

NACRO

You could forcibly abort their foetus though. I think they should sterilise anyone who fails a basic numeracy/literacy test at the age of 16 for a start. Any unauthorised pregnancies would lead to a forcible abortion and for anyone who slips through the net, prison.

Did you know that in North Korea those held in prison camps who give birth have the baby taken from them immediately and it is then killed in front of them. According to reports I read they just drop it on the floor and stamp on its head right in front of the mother. Harsh.

OllyK

ProperCharlie - I agree with your sentiments, but I think that is a different discussion!!

Why? IMO - certain groups of people get pregnant at a young age, rely on the state to support them and their children and spend the rest of their life breeding like bunnies to get more welfare, with littel consideratin for bringing the children up well, educating them or disciplining them.

Criteria for a licence?
1) I would like to see a stable family unit, i.e. a couple, not going to get deeply in to the gay / lesbian rights here, but a "Mother figure" and a "Father figure"
2) That the prospective parents are currently in a position to provide ongoing support for any child they raise (I appreciate circumstances can change, but at the time of application they should be able to support the child).
3) That they attend a parenting course - how to raise children etc
4) If circumstances change and they are no longer able to suppor the child, the staet will continue to provide support for the child, however the licence would be revoked and they would not be able to have more children until they can show they can support them again.

I appreciate that at first glance my views may appear to have right wing overtones. My bigger concern is that any fertile couple can have a child with little or no consideration for the bigger picture, how they will support and raise the child. The state is expected to pick up the pieces and the kids are given little attention and start to run wild. I am certainly not suggesting that EVERYBODY falls in to theis bracket, and I know many people who have had children young, couples and single parents and have done a brilliant job of raising their kids, it is a minority, but it is a minority that is causing bigger social issues as a result of how they do or don't raise their kids.

OllyK

Christopher Lambert - The Fortress!

TopBanana

I see where you're coming from but it would be a form of eugenics - so I say no. Excessive state interference.

NACRO

Have never seen the Fortress but it sounds like the same old **** stuff to me. It's happening in N Korea right now.

ProperCharlie

it would be great to educate prospective parents as much as possible, but i don't really see how we can prevent "bad" parents from becoming parents. I'm sure not many people would be in favour of what NACRO says is happening in N. Korea. That really put me off my breakfast, btw.

TelBoy

Is literacy and numeracy really a good measure by which to judge parenting ability??

What about all the highly educated "parents" who foist their offspring onto nannies and so on instead of giving them a close, loving upbringing? That's just as bad, if not worse, in my opinion.

NACRO

Tel, it's better than say a child left in the care of a skag head mother who leaves it in the same nappy all week and only feeds it once a day.

OllyK

I agree, but it some kind of licence was enforcable, hyperthetically speaking, would you be in favour. I would be, but I can't see a realistic and humane way of us ever being able to do it

milo

you COULD.. BUT if you did, a LOT of people would just leave the country if u werent lynched first. that's assuming u could even get voted into power with such a policy.

a MUCH better approach would be to have parenting licenses in which those who have them get better tax relief when having kids. those who have kids without parenting licenses will end up having to pay more tax.. a LOT more tax if necessary... and/or lose benefits. the main issue of this approach would mean the possibility of kids being "illegally" born into low income families and then forced into poverty due to the additional taxes. but still somewhat more humane than stamping on babies heads...

ProperCharlie

i would be in favour of making sure children are brough up in the best environment posiible, and given the greatest opportunity to become useful memebers of society. if that was acheived through licencing parents, then i would be in favour of it, yes.



cop-out, i know

OllyK

Don't think so, think it is something that most people agree with. Anything to improve the way kids are brought up has to be an improvement

civictyper

I think I can see what you're getting at but I'm not sure how you could satisfy any realistic criteria to arrive at the ideal (or near ideal) for a satisfactory parent.

Trouble is you can never tell who will be a good/bad parent until they've have kids and by then it's too late. Intellect (although helpful) doesn't really come into it as the real qualities necessary to make a good parent are too difficult to measure. You can be tactile, loving, tolerant, forgiving, supportive, encouraging, etc but this does not mean that you will be so with your children.

Quite often how we raise children is a reflection of how we were raised ourselves so our biggest test as parents is in our ability to recognise and suppress the percieved errors in our upbringing so that we don't make the same mistakes again.

In making people 'qualify' for the ability to have children you are taking away people's rights to learn from mistakes, change and develop as human beings. Our tax would be better spent IMO in providing better education for potential parents and also better aftercare.

Katana

I agree with this statement. Weeds out the genetic inferior that accounts for 90% of crimes commited in this country.

Leslie

It is true of course that there seem to be so many bad parents who either spoil their children rotten and make then selfish and grasping, or they virtually ignore them and give them no kind of guidance as they grow up. This sort of thing is at the root of the serious problems we see with so many children today.

I think that a licencing system would be totally unworkable and also unwarranted interference by the State. We have seen enough of the "nanny" schemes already.

I believe that parents should be in no doubt of their responsibilities towards their children and so should be made legally responsible for their behaviour until they come of age. By that I mean that the parents should be responsible for any theft or damage done by their children to others or their property. That would encourage parents to make sure that their children behaved themselves as always used to be the case in years gone by. It would certainly ensure a more controlled upbringing, something which is seriously missing these days.

Les

Reffro

There are some very sick people in here.

civictyper

You are joking right ??

OllyK

Bit liberal in my opinion -

Harvest eggs from all women before adolescence, then remove them so they can't breed. After extensive genetic and intelligence testing they then have to undergo intensive parenting courses after which they get the licence and the woman's egg can be retrieved from storage and impregnated.

Saves all the need for abortion! Then of course if at anytime the parents can no longer afford to support the child it is taken off them and put down!!

OK, that is all pretty sick, but it makes a point, and that is the kind of direction Hitler was heading in. I am not condoning extremism, just some better education and training for parents. We have the worst teenage pregnancy rate in Europe and we need to start addressing it

NACRO

QUOTE: "You are joking right ??"

Duh.........well obviously. However it's a point of view that has it's adherants, look at what goes down in N.Korea it's happening today as we speak and most of you probably didn't know anything about it. That's what is sick not merely reporting the fact.

scoobypreza

Good grief Nacro?? What side of the bed did you wake up on this morning??


There is no way you can judge parental suitability using educational ability and financial situation as criteria.
I know several parents of kids who have limited numeracy and literacy skills but their children come to school everyday and are polite and eager to learn. Some of the parents want to give their children every chance to gain the knowledge and education that they did not. I know this is not the case with all parents in this category but it is for some.
Likewise there are some parents who have limited income who want their children to gain a good education so they don’t end up in the same crappy job that they are in if they have a job at all in some cases.
I also know parents who are highly intelligent with well paid jobs who have total brats as children. I won't go on but you get my drift I'm sure.
There are good and bad examples in both groups.
Who’s to say someone who is an underachiever at 16 won’t become a great parent at 30? I’m nothing like the 16 year old I once was!

I do agree though that there needs to be some way of educating parents so we don’t end up with schools full of these children who are becoming more impossible to teach.

I think maybe there needs to be compulsory parenting classes for all.
As a mum to be I would certainly appreciate some advice on how to get off to a good start. I’m terrified of how I’m going to bring up my child in todays world. When I see gangs of lads I worry how am I going to stop my son becoming one of those lads? I for one wouldn’t like to be a child again in this day and age…..would you????

I’ve been looking into the work of Webster-Stratton. She has developed parent craft schemes that have been really successful. The classes re-educate the parents of the children that are going off the rails. Once you can get the parents on board the battle is half won.
If the parents of the disruptive children worked together with their school rather than against it discipline would be far more effective.

I like your idea Leslie of making parents responsible for the actions of their children. Maybe that’s the only way of forcing these parents who don’t give a stuff what their children doing to take responsibility and make some attempt at disciplining and controlling their kids.

Something needs to be done that’s for sure.
Cath

Katana

Do you have any proof of this or is it just hearsay like Saddam having WMD?

Suresh

Why not start with decent education, then you would have a smaller teenage pregnancy problem in the first place.

Can believe some of the crap posted on here advocating forced abortion. WTF? Then again after having seen some of the "Chavs" walking around UK shopping centres I'm not so sure this idea shouldn't have been implemented a couple of decades ago .........

ProperCharlie

a quick google reveals numerous websites carrying stories of forced abortion and infanticide in n. korea, however all the ones i found were US Pro-Life websites, which i wouldn't count as reliable sources.

NACRO

Katana I don't personally have any proof as I'm not privy to the secrets of the regime. However there have been many reports from those who've escaped to the South via China. As well as numerous articles and documentaries on the subject. So I suppose it could all be untrue. I tend to believe the stories though.
Would you require an uncut video to believe it yourself or would you prefer to go over and participate? It's very hard to know what is/isn't the truth without seeing it for yourself.

BTW scoobypreza you posted directly underneath the bit where I said I was joking, that should explain that I was, in fact, not being serious.

civictyper

Soz NACRO. It's really difficult picking up on sarcasm with just a few lines of text

There have been (to my mind) some pretty extreme discussions on here lately as well so was not sure if you were for real.

jaf01uk

Thing that gets on my nerves is the use of kids by the white shellsuit mob to get housing from the council! We regularly pick up 17 - 25 year old mothers (and fathers) from 3 or 4 bedroom council houses with "depression" who have OD'd. What the hell have they got to be depressed about? they have kids, they have a nice house that they dont pay for, they get all the hand outs going, they always have at least 1 mobile phone, they can afford to drink and smoke and go everywhere by taxi!!
When my ex and me got engaged donkeys years ago we went to the council to put our name down as 2 people trying to make a go of things but were told we wouldn't even qualify for points for about 5 years cos we both worked and lived with parents!
I didnt even know what anti depressants were until I started this job and now just about everybody we meet are on them!?
So yes I agree that there should be criteria to meet before having kids!
Rant over,
Gary

Katana

It goes agaisnt EVERY Oriental beliefs thats why I said it. It just sounded a bit too weird if you know what I mean.

scoobypreza

Yeah Nacro I noticed!!
I must have been typing as you were posting!
My crap timing as usual!!!