Kevin Mc

Very interesting to see that pupils who are currently getting A+ in their GCSE's (or whatever they're called now) got D's and U's in a Mock O'level paper

And of course the standard of the exams hasn't dropped

One of the 16 year olds said that's the first time he's used long multiplication What exactly do the kids have to do themselves these days.

Excellent to see today's kids getting a real schooling

PS I got a C in my O' level Maths (1982)

j.r-xrs

Exams may not have got easier but that doesn't mean what you learn hasn’t!

In maths particularly the gap between GCSE and A-level is huge, believe me I know.

It's a different syllabus and way of teaching, these kids have only had 4 weeks of 1950's learning where as real O-level students had 2 years etc.

2002 Maths GCSE grade A*
2003 Maths AS-level (First year of A level) grade B

Gordo

haha - it is very clear evidence that today's education system is failing and is chasing targets rather than teaching even the basics. The exam syllabuses should be reviewed independently in terms of quality - the number of top grades awarded is merely a function of where the line is drawn (i.e. moderation) rather than a sign of how hard the exams are.

today's exams are easier, fact - it's a sad day when so called A* pupils can't do long multiplication!

as an aside, WTF are A*s? Are these the old As such that the new As are really only Bs?

scoob_babe

so have GCSEs changed that much?? I did French albeit in 1990 and I certainly had to do a written exam. How the hell can someone predicted an A not know the verb 'avoir' in the present tense?!?!?!

TelBoy

Good programme - a bit of an embarrassment for the government too, hopefully.

SD

Watched it all the way through - Brilliant series.

Bit shocked at what I saw though, as to be honest even though it was only 9/10 years ago for me that 1950's education seemed very similar to my secondary school. I wasn't sure that things had got easier in exams but that program just goes to prove it and things are, without doubt, getting worse.

I blame the sylabus 'setters'!

Simon.

LG John

Of course there is the arguement that they don't need to learn this now! Most kids have a mobile phone and in a few years will pretty much carry a personal computer on them in their phone. There are some so-called 'basic' things that they shouldn't really need to learn now thus freeing up time for other things. Why waste time teaching the times tables when they can be taught 'problem solving' and other things that will develop their abilities to make a difference in the world.

I know I'll get flamed for that but like it or not technology is here and we need to move on with it

TelBoy

I don't think you can hope to be a successful mathematical problem solver (for example) without having a sound fundamental grasp of the basics.

Personally i think *this* is where "modern" teaching methods have gone astray.

Mice_Elf

Times table is NOT a waste of time. I don't particularly need maths in my job per se, but this is just simple multiplication, which everybody needs to learn, irregardless of profession.

Pythagorus' Theorum, SIN COS and TAN I can see as being necessary only in certain professions, but without the exposure, how can children decide what they want to be?

I learnt languages throughout my school life and came away with A-Levels at grade A for English Lit & Lang, French and German. I use those now in my job, albeit in a limited sense. I had the opportunity to work and live in Germany for 6 months purely because I knew German. Had I not been able to learn this language at school, because someone deemed it "unnecessary" this opportunity would not have been afforded me.

LG John

The bottom line is you can teach them all sorts of things but most of it will likely be wasted! I know the times tables, various maths theories, physics stuff, etc and never use any of it. My real tallent is problem solving. I have a highly logical brain and thrive on solving problems and figuring out how to make things work better/more efficiently. But, I'm a planning officer - a mundane machine that churns out the same old decisions day in day out. My only talent is wasted and so is most of the stuff I learnt at school. Its a sad fact of life that by the time you figure out what you are good at and want to do, you are usually trained up and tied into something else

Mice_Elf

Hence why exposure to a lot of subjects and options is more desirable than saying "ok, you can learn THIS and THIS because that's all we think you'll ever need."

OK, so YOU don't use them in life, but others do.

I don't use Physics (knowingly and deliberately) in life, but there are others that do.

Narrowing down options for people is daft. People's talents lie all over the place in thousands of different subjects. Who are you to say what they will or will not use? If someone decides that Geography is no longer necessary, what happens then?

"Sorry, biology is boring and as far as we're concerned you'll never need it, so we're not going to give you the opportunity to learn it."

=shakes head=

TaviaRS

And how was your logical brain developed?

It’s all very well saying that "I didn't need to learn that, I don't use it" but it is what makes us intellectually rounded people. Based on your argument, all they need to know is how to type numbers into a mobile phone, calculator or PC, how to open a bottle of Smirnoff Ice (or similar), how to purchase top up cards for their mobiles and that is about it.

All makes me feel old

TelBoy

Agree with Mice. Where's the evidence that all the new-fangled "ologies" or "sciences" or "studies" provide a better education?



[Edited by TelBoy - 8/27/2003 10:00:51 AM]

LG John

I don't know This is hurting my head to even thing about Lets just kill time until we've got the technology to put biological implants in kids brains to allow then to access the net and databases of information with just a thought

Resistance is futile

TaviaRS

Ah but then they'd have to overcome "information surge"

Mice_Elf

Trouble with today's children, parents and schools (as far as I can see from watching friends that have children and stories on the News) is that people want results NOW.

They want to press one key on a piano and be able to play like Mozart.
People want to learn one equation and be able to prove Einstein wrong.
Children are not allowed competition, because it will hurt their little feelings.
Children are not allowed to fail anything, because it will hurt their little feelings.
Children are not the responsibility of parents anymore - it's society's job to train them and guide them.

Schools are restricted by what they can and cannot teach, parents lead ever increasingly busy lives and don't tend to (have time to) sit down with their children and read them stories. Family meal times are becoming a thing of the past as everyone eats as and when, or sat in front of the television, being force fed gunk.

We're churning out teenagers who believe that they rule the world - they haven't learned a lot at school, there's no longer a "stigma" of not attending college or university, they haven't failed anything as they are not allowed to, most useful subjects have become watered down to "general knowledge", they haven't the patience to learn new things and are bored as they do not have the gumption to teach themselves.

(This is an over-generalisation, I admit as there will always be pupils who strive to learn and better themselves, but they are being over-shadowed by those that want it now - faster, better, cheaper and are not willing to work for it.)

Gordo

Saxo Boy - tut tut!

"The bottom line is you can teach them all sorts of things but most of it will likely be wasted! I know the times tables, various maths theories, physics stuff, etc and never use any of it"

utter rot - unless you know the basics of maths (and I would definitely include your tables in this) how on earth can you do anything else in maths? i.e. what is the current GSCE maths exam if they can't do 8x7 or whatever. And to claim you don't use it every day in your real life - what do you think you're doing when you split the curry bill between 6 of you, or need to work out how many square feet of something you need when buying materials for your home etc etc.

Of more use might be to get a bunch of people who got As in the last batch of the O'levels, teach them the GSCE syllabus for a couple of weeks and see how they get on in the current exams.

Kevin Mc

I think kids do need to be taught these basics - you may never use some of the stuff in your working life, but you will certainly use the logical, analytical skills that these tasks would have instilled (sp) into you.

I'm not expressing myself very well - I used to know how to do a Quadratic Equation. Bloomin useless for supporting a Database (part of my job now) but at least it helped develop my logical mind. How to work through things patiently and logically to get to the solution.

Someone mentioned how close it was to their schooling - I went through secondary school in the late '70s early '80s, and that didn't seem too far off what was shown as a '50s school.

Have schools / education really changed that much since then?

I went to a decent secondary school, and two very, very clever chappies got all A's in their A levels. Seems like you're a thickie if you don't have the full set these days. My, haven't standards improved

[Edited by Kevin Mc - 8/27/2003 11:33:33 AM]

unclebuck

that they shouldn't really need to learn now thus freeing up time for other things

Yea, like auditioning for Pop Idol? Or maybe hanging around on street corners drinking and taking drugs?

That has to be the daftest comment for some time

UB

unclebuck

Most kids have a mobile phone

And...????

You sound like a typical product of our failing education system. WTF does having a mobile phone have to do with anything?

UB

Squizz

I went to the Worcester Royal Grammar School from 1981 to 1987.

The surroundings and furniture are exactly as shown on the program. I even had to endure three years studying Latin!

Add in the sadistic games masters, sexual-persausion jokes at the expense of the boarding boys, lack of any girls, use of text books older than I was, etc.

Ah, those were the days.

Suffice to say many of my peers are now teachers themselves, and are less than pleased with the behaviour of the children, and the woefully thin topics they are supposed to teach them.

LG John

That is utterly pathetic! How are they going to learn to push themselves to their own limits without competition and the fear of being last!!

Where did I say they SHOULDN'T teach the basics I just feel there was a lot of non-basic stuff that I learnt at school that was of no use to me (more specialist stuff) and I wasn't given much choice about it. For example I was FORCED to waste many hours in German class and it was NOT a language I wanted to learn or have much use for!!

UB, neds hanging around street corners and idiots going in for cr@p like pop idle has very little to do with schooling. Thats parenting!!! IMHO the schools need to provide the choice of stuff for kids to learn and to teach basic understanding of the world/maths/etc - yes, this includes times tables! Its parents that have to help focus their child into figuring out what they want to learn and what they are good at and its parents that should be able to stop their children from going down the ned path.

Its the same old **** in this country:

"Lets have a baby honey"

Few seconds of pleasure, 9 months of hell...

Waaaaaaah, kid is born

2 weeks later both parents back at work....

"Oh, such and such a school has a great write up, lets move to that area so our kid can be in the catchment area"

Kid goes to school, parents go to work, kid comes home, parents send kid straight back out the door for X amount of hours to keep kid from under feet ....

10 years go by......

Kid didn't get encouraged by parents or taught self-reliance and as such has no will to 'learn' or 'better' him or herself.

Kid hangs about street corners.....who do the parents blame.................Themselves???? Nope, not in today's society - how can they possibly have made a mistake in little Jonny's upbringing. They blame THE SCHOOLS! the government, the neighbours, whatever [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

TRIGGER

I did an O Level paper and also a GCSE paper the other day (Maths) - and the O level was alot harder but more than that it needed a far rounder knowledge base - i.e. needed to know what a Knot was, what an acre was etc. The GCSE had simpler problems and very little additional knowledge required.

I use Maths all the time - unles you learn things like times tables you dont get a feeling for numbers, which make problem solving very hard.

SiPie

Hey .... let's teach our kids French

So..... What do you learn ?

Brilliant.... Just what I really needed when I was stranded in the centre of Paris. A bag of feckin apples

Move with the times and let them embrace all technology and teach modern things like how not to get someone pregnant age 12, drugs education, etc but let them just be kids and allow them to play on building sites and let them get smacked in the face with stone laden snowballs

Never did me any harm

Si
(now residing in an institute for the criminally insane)

LG John

This is so true Bumps and scrapes are all part of growing up. Cotton wool is not

Do you know that they now sing, 'bah, bah, wooly sheep' I seriously doubt 5 years will pick on the black kid because the traditional version had the word.......dare I say it........'black' in it

P.S. Note how I've avoided the P.C. thread - if I took part I promise it would make 100 pages

GTI

Fantastic and shows a fooking awful, education system I know I did GCSE's and how many times did I hear "if you do badly I look badly so work!"

GTI

And I have to agree with Saxo Boy on everything he said - bullsh1t! springs to mind who gives a toss about feelings kids today know alot about life alot more than in the fifties or even the eighties!

TaviaRS

Possibly they do know more about "life", wow that's really useful, rather like building an house without foundations IMHO.

So looking forward to the day I need an op and my surgeon is thick as 2 short planks but well he/she has seen it done on television (if we still have that media in the future) lots of times, can't be that difficult really. Oh, which medical school did you go to?Didn't couldn't be arsed with that, it was boring to sit and learn. Oh great!

scoob_babe

after reading the article about debt and the bit about 'financial education' on the national curriculm....I thought maths helped you work out percentages and simple subtraction

http://www.ntlworld.com/partners/itn...ess/411501.php

edited cos I'm stupid and did it as a quote, not a clicky

[Edited by scoob_babe - 8/27/2003 4:06:40 PM]

TRIGGER

This is the kind of utter crap u hear from people without A levels, degrees etc - 'I went to the University of Life' - and that gets u what ? Bugger all. If you are smart you will succeed whatever happens, but qualifications open doors that are otherwise closed.

Kids today know more about life than kids in the Eighties ? Why ? and what about ? Drink ? drugs ? sex ? Misery ? poverty ? I can see no reason why they would. Their brains are more worried about what polyphonic ringtone to buy next rather than reading, learning etc.

I'll get off my high horse now, and shut up.