Racism
13 May 2003, 10:32 PM
#1
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Bradford
Posts: 13,720
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, just been having a wee debate with my flatmate (as always) about this.
Basically, it revolves around the word 'gook'
Now, this is a word I use from time to time in the company of my friends but IMO in a non-racist context simply because I find the word amusing. For example, "Fancy a gook tonight boys" - meaning chinese meal. There are three things you MUST note here: 1. I'd only ever use such a term in the company of my friends and people I know. 2. When I say it I have no ill feelings/thoughts/etc about chinese, Korean or any other oriental culture. 3. I actually embrace oriental culture through kuk sool and would say that I find it to be vastly more civil than British culture.
Therefore, is using a term that I find funny (mainly because of the make up and sound of the spoken word as opposed to any meaning that may be associated to it by other 'real' racist people), when said amoungst people I know and who'd take no offense to it constitute me being 'racist'. My argument is that for it to be racest it would have to be said with the intention to offend or said with ill thoughts in mind. In my case this is not so, its a throw-away comment that means nothing to me and isn't spoken around people that it may mean something too. If I had any close oriental friends then I'd happily use it around them provided they knew it had no meaning to me. Much in the same way that when I meet my English friends I start the conversation something like, 'how's it going you suvern fairy', 'how's life ya English bas' or in the case of Glasweegians 'Aw right weegie!' - just banter between friends with no ill feeling
Take black rappers that constantly refer to each other as *******. Surely by my flatemates interpretation of racism the very use of the 'word' would constitute racism even though its an attack on themselves
Thoughts/Discuss.
P.S. Before any of you start I'm not racist as I believe we are all born equal irrespective of skin colour, etc
Basically, it revolves around the word 'gook'
Now, this is a word I use from time to time in the company of my friends but IMO in a non-racist context simply because I find the word amusing. For example, "Fancy a gook tonight boys" - meaning chinese meal. There are three things you MUST note here: 1. I'd only ever use such a term in the company of my friends and people I know. 2. When I say it I have no ill feelings/thoughts/etc about chinese, Korean or any other oriental culture. 3. I actually embrace oriental culture through kuk sool and would say that I find it to be vastly more civil than British culture.
Therefore, is using a term that I find funny (mainly because of the make up and sound of the spoken word as opposed to any meaning that may be associated to it by other 'real' racist people), when said amoungst people I know and who'd take no offense to it constitute me being 'racist'. My argument is that for it to be racest it would have to be said with the intention to offend or said with ill thoughts in mind. In my case this is not so, its a throw-away comment that means nothing to me and isn't spoken around people that it may mean something too. If I had any close oriental friends then I'd happily use it around them provided they knew it had no meaning to me. Much in the same way that when I meet my English friends I start the conversation something like, 'how's it going you suvern fairy', 'how's life ya English bas' or in the case of Glasweegians 'Aw right weegie!' - just banter between friends with no ill feeling
Take black rappers that constantly refer to each other as *******. Surely by my flatemates interpretation of racism the very use of the 'word' would constitute racism even though its an attack on themselves
Thoughts/Discuss.
P.S. Before any of you start I'm not racist as I believe we are all born equal irrespective of skin colour, etc
13 May 2003, 11:07 PM
#4
I see where you are coming from Saxo Boy, its just a case of applying common sense, the word I suppose has a certain ring to it if taken out of context, what it reminds me of how American Soldiers reffered to the Vietnamese during the war, if anyone used it around me to refer to a oriental meal of some sort I wouldnt say anything, I would just wonder why somebody would say it when its actually innacurate (may be wrong) and unnescessary as ask if I fancy a Chinese would suffice (Dont need to say meal as most people dont ask if you want an actual Chinese person)
Perhaps it may be better to find an alternative that hasnt got the slightest possibility of upseting anybody ?
Black Rappers are Black and when they refer to each other as ****** it seems to be done with a sense of irony and even oocasionaly, peversely as a term of affection, they are welcome to say it to each other, you and I unless black are not.
I think things have got out of hand thought with the pc, cant say accident black spot, black board etc etc, thats just daft.
Yours sincerely,
Honky *** Motherf*cker
Perhaps it may be better to find an alternative that hasnt got the slightest possibility of upseting anybody ?
Black Rappers are Black and when they refer to each other as ****** it seems to be done with a sense of irony and even oocasionaly, peversely as a term of affection, they are welcome to say it to each other, you and I unless black are not.
I think things have got out of hand thought with the pc, cant say accident black spot, black board etc etc, thats just daft.
Yours sincerely,
Honky *** Motherf*cker
13 May 2003, 11:21 PM
#6
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Bradford
Posts: 13,720
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think things have got out of hand thought with the pc
I personally wouldn't be bothered by anyone calling me pretty much any name unless it was so spiteful that I could tell it was intended to try and hurt me. It extends to all walk of life - feminism for example! Just the other day I heard on the radio that some women is sueing a shop because when she asked for a Yorkie the guy said jokingly, 'oh its not for girls'What the **** is that all about!! It's patetic IMO! Name an advert in the last 5 years that hasn't had a hidden dig at men but when the roles are switched it ends up in court! If you ask me people that get offended by such trivial things aren't comfortable with themselves. I'm comfortable being male, I'm comfortable being scottish, I'm comfortable being straight, I'm comfortabe driving a scooby, etc. I'd like to think I'd feel this way wherever I'd been born, etc
Trending Topics
14 May 2003, 12:06 AM
#15
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On topic - and given that western caucasians rarely if ever truly understand racism (sectarianism or ethnism perhaps).
To a person of 'colour' racism is the unsolicited imposition or application of a racial stereotype. Therefore it is not in the gift of the giver to decide whether it is racist or not, it is in the gift of the receiver.
A simple, although probably poor analogy, is that for some people saying F**K is not offensive, it is merely part of the vernacular. To others it is incredibly offensive, even if offence was not intended.
So the use of racial stereotyping, or the use of racial language in the passive sense, in my mind is actually to most insidious form of racism as it perpetuates the sense that it is OK - I can use these words becuase my best friend is chinese, black - whatever.
In terms of the original question - if you are unsure whether your behaviour or language is racist then the simple litmus test is "would you use the same language with individuals of that race?"
If not, then why use it in private?
A recent experience I had was to be on a train with a Headmaster and some children around 10-12 years old. He was asking the children to come up with riddles to explain what they were. His offering was the old nutmeg "Ho Hi is a Chinaman?"
When challenged he was shocked at my suggestion that this was racist claiming that he ran a multicultural school. So I asked him to apply the test - would he tell the same riddle to the Chinese Ambassador if was visiting and thinking of placing his child in that very school. Ofcourse not!
All IMHO of course - and for those who know me - political correctness is not my speciality!
Rannoch
To a person of 'colour' racism is the unsolicited imposition or application of a racial stereotype. Therefore it is not in the gift of the giver to decide whether it is racist or not, it is in the gift of the receiver.
A simple, although probably poor analogy, is that for some people saying F**K is not offensive, it is merely part of the vernacular. To others it is incredibly offensive, even if offence was not intended.
So the use of racial stereotyping, or the use of racial language in the passive sense, in my mind is actually to most insidious form of racism as it perpetuates the sense that it is OK - I can use these words becuase my best friend is chinese, black - whatever.
In terms of the original question - if you are unsure whether your behaviour or language is racist then the simple litmus test is "would you use the same language with individuals of that race?"
If not, then why use it in private?
A recent experience I had was to be on a train with a Headmaster and some children around 10-12 years old. He was asking the children to come up with riddles to explain what they were. His offering was the old nutmeg "Ho Hi is a Chinaman?"
When challenged he was shocked at my suggestion that this was racist claiming that he ran a multicultural school. So I asked him to apply the test - would he tell the same riddle to the Chinese Ambassador if was visiting and thinking of placing his child in that very school. Ofcourse not!
All IMHO of course - and for those who know me - political correctness is not my speciality!
Rannoch
14 May 2003, 12:56 AM
#16
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Bish,Bash,Bosham!
Posts: 2,204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the use of the word ****** began in the days of slavery, when it was invented and used by white folk as a derogatory term for black people. IMHO, the reason it is used black on black is an attempt to make it less offensive i.e. make the word positive for black people. Personally I don't think this is a good idea as it will always have nasty connotations, especially when used by white people.
Also, comedians such as Chris Rock (mentioned above) and Eddie Murphy etc. use the word a lot and I guess it rubs off on the kids at the time - I doubt many older generation black people use the word?
At the end of the day, if you don't consider yourself racist (I know I'm not) then you are never going to intentionally use racist words/comments. If you do accidentaly offend someone, then just apologise and say that no offence was intended...
J
Also, comedians such as Chris Rock (mentioned above) and Eddie Murphy etc. use the word a lot and I guess it rubs off on the kids at the time - I doubt many older generation black people use the word?
At the end of the day, if you don't consider yourself racist (I know I'm not) then you are never going to intentionally use racist words/comments. If you do accidentaly offend someone, then just apologise and say that no offence was intended...
J
14 May 2003, 08:36 AM
#19
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Bradford
Posts: 13,720
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rannoch, your point of view is exactly that of my flatmates and I do see his/your point. Maybe your right and that I can't understand it. I just find it strange that spoken words when not said in the context to offend can indeed offend so deeply. For example, to me for a few months there the term 'fuel surge' was actually offensive as it was always directed at me and meant to wind me up/p1ss me off/or downright insult me. Over the course of the last few months I became comfortable within myself over what happened to bring about the term and as such scoobynet can rattle on about saxo boy and 'fuel surge' as often as they like and raise little more than a smile. So is there a degree of truth in that if people take offense so easily that they are in some way unsure of themselves? Why can asians, blacks, indian's, etc be offended so easily and yet white people are near impossible to offend if you talk about their skin colour, where they were born, etc. Its not like the above are a minority in world terms, we are! (accordinging to the recent 'if the world was 100 people and put in a village thread'
Perhaps I don't/can't understand given that I'm a white male brought up in a predominantly white society. If that is the case then I appologise to anyone the content of this thread may offend but I can't change my up bringing. All I can assure you is that no matter what I say or do I see people as people, that have thoughts, feelings, etc just as my own. Well, the exception being BMW drivers
Perhaps I don't/can't understand given that I'm a white male brought up in a predominantly white society. If that is the case then I appologise to anyone the content of this thread may offend but I can't change my up bringing. All I can assure you is that no matter what I say or do I see people as people, that have thoughts, feelings, etc just as my own. Well, the exception being BMW drivers
14 May 2003, 09:57 AM
#20
The only people I discrimate against are , Muggers, Rapists, Virus Writers, Dictators, litter droppers, pop up merchants, inconsiderate Wilmslowites, Taggers, the greedy, Vandals, the Workshy, the lazy, most Garage acts (not because they are Black, cos they are crap) etc etc
An Arsehole is and Arsehole whatver the colour..
An Arsehole is and Arsehole whatver the colour..
14 May 2003, 10:47 AM
#22
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a house
Posts: 5,153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fancy a gook tonight boys
I dont know really. Racism is stupid. If you get to know a person better, you can find a million more reason to hate em..
14 May 2003, 10:56 AM
#23
BANNED
Join Date: May 2002
Location: scotland home of the brave
Posts: 13,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lol @ claude hahaha u nutter
gook is racist and its ok for a black man to call a fellow black man a ******, same as a paki to call another paki a paki
but if i have a white mate as in a good white mate like claude he can call me whatever
gook is racist and its ok for a black man to call a fellow black man a ******, same as a paki to call another paki a paki
but if i have a white mate as in a good white mate like claude he can call me whatever
14 May 2003, 11:15 AM
#24
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If any of my mates calls me a ****** I hit him.
It is and always has been a derogatory word. Just because there are fools out there using it on each other doesn't make it right.
And there are idiots out there buying Eisenegger jeans. My G_d!
I don't buy rap as try as I might I find it difficult to find anything decent inside such negative packaging.
It is and always has been a derogatory word. Just because there are fools out there using it on each other doesn't make it right.
And there are idiots out there buying Eisenegger jeans. My G_d!
I don't buy rap as try as I might I find it difficult to find anything decent inside such negative packaging.
14 May 2003, 11:37 AM
#25
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Cardiff. Wales
Posts: 11,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the guy fom the kumars says he can say things but we cant then hes being racist. But dont say anything or youll be in court.
The whole issue has become a joke.Biggest racists are the CRE.Yet nobody ever questions their policies,comments etc. Was listening to Trevor Philips(appointed because he was black) the other day saying that the attack and murder of Steven Lawrence was racist. When asked how he knew it was racist he said because he was attacked by whites. Does this mean that every attack by a black,asain,chinese against a white is racist as well. Dont think so.
Fed up of hearing Government etc saying wecshould all live in perfect harmony alongside each other whatever colour , creed we are. No way. I will chose who I mix with, talk to, socialise with and not be told.
I an sick of seeing ads for jobs with local authorities with the little piece saying "applications are paticularly welcome from ethnic minorities" Why the fukc is that then. Surely its better to employ the best person whether hes black ,white or bloody green for that matter. Same with the Met in London . Why do they take preference with minorities when recruiting.
Is it any wonder that white people in Britain are getting fed up with it all. Seems to a lot of them that they come second in everything these days.
Chip.
Before I get slammed for this Id just like to say the best neighbours I have ever had were two Indian doctors who were just superb people.
The whole issue has become a joke.Biggest racists are the CRE.Yet nobody ever questions their policies,comments etc. Was listening to Trevor Philips(appointed because he was black) the other day saying that the attack and murder of Steven Lawrence was racist. When asked how he knew it was racist he said because he was attacked by whites. Does this mean that every attack by a black,asain,chinese against a white is racist as well. Dont think so.
Fed up of hearing Government etc saying wecshould all live in perfect harmony alongside each other whatever colour , creed we are. No way. I will chose who I mix with, talk to, socialise with and not be told.
I an sick of seeing ads for jobs with local authorities with the little piece saying "applications are paticularly welcome from ethnic minorities" Why the fukc is that then. Surely its better to employ the best person whether hes black ,white or bloody green for that matter. Same with the Met in London . Why do they take preference with minorities when recruiting.
Is it any wonder that white people in Britain are getting fed up with it all. Seems to a lot of them that they come second in everything these days.
Chip.
Before I get slammed for this Id just like to say the best neighbours I have ever had were two Indian doctors who were just superb people.
14 May 2003, 12:11 PM
#26
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Bradford
Posts: 13,720
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"chinke" - I realise that is the more 'accurate' term when referring to a chinese meal, but its just not a word I like. Much in the same way '****' can be really funny in the right context but 'cvnt' can't. 'cvnt' just sounds to vile!!
I also I'm not sure about this society where we put cash machines low for disabled people but the rest of the country gets backache
I also I'm not sure about this society where we put cash machines low for disabled people but the rest of the country gets backache
14 May 2003, 12:26 PM
#27
Scooby Regular
I also I'm not sure about this society where we put cash machines low for disabled people but the rest of the country gets backache
14 May 2003, 12:59 PM
#28
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 1,320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No one is born racist. It's the prejudices of the parents people they mix with that makes them so.
Unfortunately grown ups (as we call ourselves) are very good at highlighting differences. For example... as a child I never once considered my Golliwog as anything other than a cuddly toy. I never thought twice that ba ba black sheep was about anything other than a black sheep. I'm sure Asian children in Tower Hamlets never considered that a hot cross bun was related to christians until the differntiation was highlighted by the LEA.
In fact it is my own opinion that it is the do gooders of this country who are responsible for racial hatred more than anyone else as they seek to find the differnces.
Dave
Unfortunately grown ups (as we call ourselves) are very good at highlighting differences. For example... as a child I never once considered my Golliwog as anything other than a cuddly toy. I never thought twice that ba ba black sheep was about anything other than a black sheep. I'm sure Asian children in Tower Hamlets never considered that a hot cross bun was related to christians until the differntiation was highlighted by the LEA.
In fact it is my own opinion that it is the do gooders of this country who are responsible for racial hatred more than anyone else as they seek to find the differnces.
Dave
