Neil Smalley

chiark

The dog might have been dark gray, or dark brown rather than black, we can't tell as the film's in black and white

You're right though. Cutting it out is more noticable than leaving it in.

[Edited by Neil Smalley - 10/7/2002 3:30:30 PM]

DavidLewis

What would happen nowadays if you called your dog '******'
Imagine taking your dog out for a walk, shouting,
"Oi, ******, come here boy!"
Would you be arrested?

Editted to say that I don't mean to offend.

[Edited by DavidLewis - 10/7/2002 5:17:46 PM]

Bajie

Edited as theres no real point ....

[Edited by Bajie - 10/7/2002 5:10:23 PM]

seven xl

I am absolutely disgusted by this sort of action. The film should be shown unedited. I seem to remember Denzel Washington using the word ‘******’ rather a lot in Training Day.

David
************************************************** ****************

Did you watch the film or just skim through it?

[Edited by seven xl - 10/7/2002 11:20:28 PM]

DJFish

Utter gash!

The film was on last year, the same thing happened and the same subject got posted up here.

My Gran's brother was a bomb aimer in 617 and was killed on one of the Tirpitz raids, I've been a Dambusters fan since the first time I read the book.

The film is based on history, and Gibson's dog was called ******, whether or not this was, or is racist is immaterial. Its a bit like removing all the ghetto/camp scenes from Schindlers list or the train scene from Ghandi, just because what is portrayed on film is considered unacceptable nowadays, doesn't mean that we should bury our heads in the sand and pretend it didn't happen.

I'm all for putting and end to racism (and in my opinion that includes descrimination, positive and negative) and for everyone to be treated equally and individually....except P****ys of course!
But this is just silly.

Regards

Dave


[Edited by Neil Smalley - 10/9/2002 11:47:38 AM]

dsmith

The Dam Busters by Paul Brickhill.

Also

Enemy Coast Ahead by Guy Gibson himself.

Deano

[Edited by dsmith - 10/9/2002 10:12:26 AM]

JackClark

Anyone else notice that the dogs name was edited out yesterday?

brickboy

What programme / post was that?

I remember an old copy of "Car" magazine, in which Phil Lewellin had written an article referencing Guy Gibson and his dog. Some Americans wrote in to later issues complaining about the "outrageous use of offensive terms" etc. Bizarre.

Neil Smalley

The Dam busters was on? RATS. One of my fave films

So what did they use instead of '******' as the codeword when one of the dams was breached, "Ethnic Minority" ?

Anyone with any kind of sense would know
1. The time period the film was set in
2. The culture and word usage of the time
3. References to ****** related to Guy Gibson's dog that was knocked over.
4. Its supposed to be a historical film, and not a PC film.

Barmy, absolutley barmy.

The Zohan

Yes it was, was the last time i saw it too. I wonder if it is PC gone wrong, the film is 50 y/o. I have heard this and worse in modern films so not sure why this has been done to a 'classic' story of wartime endeavour.

Not advocating racism at all. If the expression offends then perhaps it should be removed. But why the hell is it left in other films.

dsmith

If it was passing reference I could understand - but as it was used as the codeword its kind of key. History cant be changed - so why delete it

Better it was shown as made imho.

Deano

Rob FTM

PC gone mad. Its strange that it is acceptable to show hundreds (thousands?) of German being drowned but not to use a word which may offend.

Tally Ho.

Rob.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

I'm sure it was used quite often in Pulp Fiction. Its all to do with the way the term is used, which is why it should be in both films IMO

chiark

I was determined not to get drawn into this, but I have. Damn. Busted.

The dog's name is latin for "Black", that's it. The guy's dog was a black labrador. The dog's name, right or wrong, wasn't intended to be offensive, and it certainly wasn't used in the perjorative sense that seems to be exclusively associated with it nowadays. To blank it out, IMHO, seems more offensive by drawing attention to it...

I say all this, but I must admit that I've never suffered from racism so am probably not qualified to comment. (No doubt Claudius will pick me apart now )

brickboy

What a bunch of "muddy funsters" the film censors are

Richard Work

So what did they change the name to 'Blackie'?

Too PC for me (and yes I have been a victim of racism)

Richard

Brendan Hughes

It's been out for some time, I don't know when it started. Certainly out 3 yrs ago when I last saw it.

I think it's disgraceful. I suspect, given British public schoolboys in the 1940's, it was indeed generally a "racist" joke name, and not the Latin word for black. As I'm proud of what Gibson and Barnes Wallis did - despite the fact that it would now be judged a war crime, attacking a power station - I'm sorry about that to all those who take offence. But it was a historical fact that such was the dog's name, and Gibson was so upset at the dog being killed by a car that he decided to use it as the codeword for the Moehne dam breaking. And editing it out to make the film PC is a bit much. Which is more offensive - leaving the word "******" in, which would normally occur twice, or showing a 2-hour jingoistic film about how we beat the nasty Hun?

Talk about revisionist history...

Neil Smalley

It's interesting that you mention attacking the dams would be a war crime today. In WW2, the British were more ruthless in warfare than the ****'s(I'm not talking about the holocaust but the lengths they would go to achieve their objectives).

For example, the British Governement at the time had a scorched earth policy where, should the ****'s invade whole areas of Britain would be sprayed with Anthrax to deny the Germans that territory; whether the civilians escaped in time or not. Imagine if the ****'s had, had that attitude come D-Day.

If I also remember correctly in the Gulf war the Americans would have destroyed the big dam overlooking Bagdad, thus destroying the city if saddam had used chemical/biological weapons.

Personally I reckon he did use Chem/bio weapons but the Allies chose to ignore it, for fear of the political fallout of using weapons of mass destruction on Iraq.

Anyway back to the topic. I wonder how much of our history will be rewritten to make it more palatble today?

dsmith

Why is attacking Power stations a war crime? In all out war it would seem a fairly obvious thing to attack.

Deliberately drowning thousands is more questionable. As is causing fire storms in Hamburg etc. End justify the means ? Fecked if I know. Just glad I'm able to debate it in a free society 50 years later.

Deano

Shark

I am absolutely disgusted by this sort of action. The film should be shown unedited. I seem to remember Denzel Washington using the word ‘******’ rather a lot in Training Day.

David

astraboy

"Well, wassup with you ******? you didnt win!"
Quote from girlie who promised a street racer a menage a trois if he won then backing out. Fast And The Furious.
Strange how it can be used in one contect but not another. Still I suppose the blouses will tear me apart anyway.
astraboy.

Markus

bugger at missing DB's as it's top quality film, even with the edits, which i am dead against. At least it portrays things in WW2 better than most of the hollywood, usa centric stuff, U571 anyone?

The PC lobby has gone too far. Not being racist, but it would seem if a black person calls another black person '******' then it's ok, even if it's meant as an term of offenciveness, but should a non black person call a black person '******' then it's taboo. Hmm, double-standards? Don't see the PC lobby getting on thier high horses if a black person calls a white guy a "white motherfckuer".

I AM not racist, just putting in my 2cents worth.

AllanB

I'm mixed race and was the subject of racism and find the word "****** " not to my liking regardless of who uses it. I recall working in a mainly non white office were the only white person in our team was nicknamed snowflake ! Sort of amusing bit not for the guy who was the but of many jokes.

Anyway back to the film I personally have no problem with the word being left in as its not meant in a disrespectful way, I;m gutted I missed the film as I do like those types of films. 633 squadron is better though with those kick *** Mosquitos doing their stuff.


AllanB

Luke

Spent time at Scampton years ago.. Check the "Vulcans" out!! what a plane.

So why is it that all the Black rappers /street scum call each other "******!?????

JamieMacdonald

It's a bit like me calling you mate, mate.

dsmith

633 squadron was fictional bollox. 617 wasn't. No contest

Read the book, the stuff they did after the dams was as impressive.

Deano

Brendan Hughes

617 were my all-time heros as a kid. I read the Paul Brickhill book about 50 times, as well as Gibson's autobiography Enemy Coast Ahead, and a few other bits and pieces. Don't know how many airfix kits I built either.

SimonH

617 Sqn kept the N word as a formation callsign for sometime afterwards. I think it changed after they tried talking to an American controller with the callsign "****** Formation". I believe the controller was an african-american and, quite rightly, took offence and refused to talk to them Bit of on-the-spot callsign changing and they became "Black Dog Formation".

As for the film, I think it's disgusting that it's been edited out but that's the way of the world these days.

wrxstiman

The term is ok to use in films when it is a conversation involving black people. When whites use the term and no black people are around it is deemed racist.
Fast and Furious and pulp fiction were multi-cultural involving black and white actors.
Dambusters had no black actors so deemed racist.

Crazy?????

Bajie

Fast and Furious and Pulp Fiction and all these R&B artists reflect true life.
As there are no ******* doing anything really worthwhile out there why should the entertainment industry pretend they are.
Is snowflake still working in Burger King?