BOB.T

He's a weapons expert today!

The office smartarse that is! On the news they mentioned summat about the army wanting to keep the SA-80 rifle despite it's unreliable history, the conversation......

me: they're crap them things, they've been going wrong ever since they've been in use!
him: nah, they're quality bits of kit!
me: what are, SA-80's?
him: yeah, qaulity bit of kit!
me, a little stunned: how do you know?
him: I've fired one, I had no problems with it, it's all these idiots they let in the army who don't know what they're doing!

There was a brief silence, I buried mi head in some paperwork

Now don't get me wrong, I'm no military expert but I do sort of keep an eye on that side of things, my dad was in the army and we both have an interest in planes and stuff....... the SA-80 may be a perfectly decent rifle but I've never heard a good report about it untill today, from a mechanic turned office worker

TAZMAN

It is a ****e rifle, prone to jamming, almost impossible to keep operational in the field as the slightest exposure to a hostile enviroment sees it failing e.g dirt, grit whatever. Accuracy and range are not up to comparative weapons.

The most definative inditment of how bad it is , is that our special forces do not use it..preferring the M16 or Heckler and koch GR 3. Both more robust and more accurate.

He is talking out of his **** and having fired one once will not make him an expert...

BOB.T

I seriously doubt he could even pick an SA-80 out of a line up never mind fire one, I wouldn't let him loose with a super soaker

scrappydoo

Didnt the army spend a few million updating this gun. Apparently it didnt make a slight bit of difference.

P1Fanatic

When I was in CCF a few years back we did a lot of shooting with the SA80, Cadet GP (Single Shot Bolt Action Version of the SA80) , LSW and even used the H&K .22 conversion kit for the standard SA80.

The SA80 is pretty accurate but in terms or quality and reliability it leaves a lot to be desired even when compared to models that are a lot older. I seem to recall that when field stripping and cleaning the SA80, if you reassemble the gas flow components at the wrong angle then you completely **** the gun up and can't use it without taking it back to the armoury where they have the right kit.

dsmith

Also fired real SA80s and the Single Shot Cadet version in the CCF.

Quality moment. Spend 30 mins doing usual range sfaety stuff. First group step up, lie prone. Everyone ***** the rifle (for which there was a distinct knack). Bloke in the middle doesnt get it first time. Second time puts some effort in. Rifle *****. as the cocking handle springs back it comes off and flies 15 yards down the range

Time to make safe then...

The cadet version didnt have the Gas return parts of the "real" one so the oh-so-intelligent designers deceided to use the spare space inside the casing just next to the barrel to store a small plastic bottle of oil for cleaning. Hmmm so why has the bottle melted -oh yeah maybe the barrel gets hot ? .

Deano

pban

Fired the SA many times while I was serving in the Royal Air Force. It was definitely very accurate virtually anyone can become a marksmans with it, but RAF regiment lads never had a good word to say except its accurate.

Paul

P1Fanatic

dsmith - reminds me of when I was in the indoor range on the right most lane and during firing the guy next to me fired a shot and the empty case ejected and went down the back of my shirt. As you can imagine it was bloody hot but I couldnt just jump up and get it out as I had a fully loaded SA80 in my hands which I had to make safe. Can still rememeber the smell of burning skin

The Crushinator

What newspaper does he read? The Sun?

Get him to watch the channel4 news Bob, they seem quite interested in the SA80's history of crapiness

MarkO

Private Eye have run a number of features about the SA80's failures, too.

Little Miss WRX

Sounds like that guy doesn't have the intelligence to even switch over channels to C4

The Zohan

Bob

Can you make something up say like a rifle, plane, tank, etc and ask him for his opinion on it and see what he comes back with. Love to hear about him ferng an made up weapon or driving a non-existent tank.

Paul

[Edited by Paul Habgood - 9/18/2002 10:34:52 AM]

ajm

I too have fired one several times both with SUSAT and iron sights, didn't really think it was that accurate when compared to its predecessor the SLR or indeed any longer more conventional shaped rifles. Its dimensions aren't condusive to a target weapon with its stubby little stock and dodgy balance... but then I spose it isn't really meant to be an accurate target weapon....

my lasting memory is doing a quick fire competition where its weak ejector managed to send 3 very hot cartridge cases down my sleeve instead of throwing them clear (one of the reasons for constant jamming) and left me with burns all down the arm. Nice to know we are equipping our lads with the very best!

Anyway on the subject at hand - There's nothing worse than an office know-all, you should plan a very public humiliation for him where everyone gets to find out what an unknowledgeable lackwit he really is... (something like the Sherminator scene in American Pie where he wets himself would be good)

Dan B

My pennies worth:

The SA80 replaced the SLR, (wot they used in the Falklands) a 7.62mm head exploding monster that was about 20 foot long, hense a pain in the **** when it came to CQB. Heavy too. SA80, hmmm. Never liked it. Nice and short, good for CQB, but couldn't get enough leaverage when using the good old bayonet. Basically if you remove the SUSAT you have a really **** weapon, because you've now taken away the only thing that makes it any good. The sight also weighed about as much as the actual gun as well. Can't remember how many stopages I had with that piece of crap, just glad I never lost any of the 1000000's of idiot bits that its made from, and that I never had to kill anyone with it.

BOB.T

Hmm, he seems a bit quiet today, hasn't mentioned guns again yet, he will do though at some point, I really can't wait for it

I didn't realise there was so many military types on here! I must say, I don't fancy the burning shell idea

On a different note, he's still adamant that all Robins migrate for summer despite seeing some outside the office! I also brought two books in which both clearly state that Robins are residents here the whole year.... " no, that's wrong... there are scientific studies into where they go"

MrDBM

Alright Bob? Just adding my two cents worth!

Yeah okay, the SA80 family of weapons could have been a lot better, but these things work both ways. The weapon fulfills it's original design spec, and is one of the cheapest weapons on the market - in fact there isn't that much profit in it at all - even with the upgrades.

Part of this problem is the MoD's total reluctance to provide decent requirements - and pay realistic figures. It's shameful that our elite chaps walk around with American built hardware - but what can you do, the company is in the arms game to make money (who isn't) and if the 'authorities' don't want to pay for the absolute best - then it's not viable to go out and build it.

Sorry - just my two cents.

Jerome

As an aside, the SA80 (Small Arms 80) is now officially called (within the Army) "The Rifle 5.56", because the MoD are embarrassed that it took so long to get into service. The 80 bit refers to the year it was supposed to become operational. I saw my first SA80 in 1991 and that was the infantry.

The SA80 was trialed with 2 other proven rifles - the M16 and the Steyr. The SA80 came last in all of the tests. It still won because, surprise surprise, it was the cheapest.

The first reported problem, IIRC, was that the magazine release catch was exposed. After many many magazines (often full of live rounds) were lost - even by very experience soldiers - did the MoD decide to get a guard put around the release catch.

Ever since then it has been plagued with problems about reliabilty and it's poor performance in anything but ideal conditions.

There are only 2 features of the rifle that are any good - the SUSAT sight and the sling.

The fact that it was taken off the NATO list of approved weapons says something. It has also not been adopted by a single armed force anywhere in the world other than British forces.

The fact they had to spend £90 odd million to bring the rifle up to scratch (and there is evidence that this is not so) is scandalous. Designing and building the thing properly in the first place would have actually saved money. The MoD are normally far to short sighted about such things and are constantly buying crap kit - the British Army, best trained and worst equipped in the world. They can't even get the boots right FFS!

I also find it incredulous that the top brass said that the Royal Marines' poor cleaning practices caused the problems in Afghanistan. Absolute sh1te. The RM's are some of the best trained and most profession soldiers in the world.

The ironic thing about this whole debacle is that the original weapon - the EM2 - was a well built and robust rifle. The MoD commissioned a cheap imitation of the EM2 resulting in the SA80.

Bottom line is that the SA80 is a piece of sh1te.

And as my favourite saying goes "No matter how hard you try, you can't polish a turd".

PS: For the record I've been in the TA for 15 years and a Skill at Arms Instructor for 3 years.

SimonH

Well I might as well add my 2p's worth.
I'm aircrew so don't have much dealing with rifles and nonsense like that - we just get a 9mm that we keep hidden away somewhere (biggest threat to RAF aircraft are the armed aircrew inside ).

That said, our rear crew were given SA80s when we were in AFG. Nobody I know rates it all. It makes a nice weapon to take down to the range on a sunny day if it's a target shooting contest and somebody else is cleaning it for you afterwards but otherwise don't bother.

I see the MoD are now backpedalling over this matter again and have announced we're keeping it. The muppets that tested it blamed the guys in the field for not cleaning it properly. This is in some ways true. To clean it properly it would appear that you need a sterile environment and a good hour or so to get it all done. This is totally impractical.

That is why most folk on ops arm themselves with other, better built kit - MP5s, M16, CAR15s etc etc. Who gives a toss if it's foreign built, as long as when you actually need it does the job it's meant to do.
Sadly though, for all you tax payers, your defence budget tax pounds are spent propping up British industry and crap homegrown products rather than equipping the armed forces to their job properly (btw - british industry does produce some of the best military kit in the world. It also produces some of the worst).

Whoops I've gone off on one now

Your office geek sounds like the twatish planespotters that come and hassle us at airshows. They know the answer to the questions they ask you but just want to see what you'll say so they can catch you out. Hence we make up a lot of rubbish to tell them. He doesn't wear a bomber jacket or leather jacket with airforce patches on it does he? That's usually standard rig for these people........

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

Great thread. I know absolutely jack about weapons or the armed forces but found this really interesting.

Just want to say keep up the good work fellas

johnfelstead

ask him if he has seen the new anti aircraft missile developed for desert warfare, the Bloodhound. It's an awesome piece of kit. (it was also decomisioned in the mid 80's after being designed originally to replace the GE lightning as an interceptor in the cold war) see if he bites.

Dan B

Jerome: The Sling, yeah, forgot about that. The sling is cool.

dsmith

ROFLMAO @ SimonH

Lived in Felixstowe as a kid just over the river from Bawdsey which was one of the Bloodhound bases. Big they were. Always seemed very impressive from the road. Later spent several weekend ccf camps @ local bases. As I recall I pulled on the one at Bawdsey. Happy Days

Deano

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

As a student, I worked one summer as a labourer on the steelworks, in town.
There was a guy there, another student, and what he didn't know about motorbikes, was not worth knowing!
I asked him one day in front of a gang of lads, if he'd seen the brand new "Russian motorbike, the Mantek 900?"
I went on to say that it had "Zibibdium inlet valves, and a Shlobotnik extractor exhaust". Everyone kept a straight face while he agreed that he'd seen it, explained about extractor exhausts, and told us that "Zibibdium" inlet valves would stay cooler than steel ones.
Next day we let him have it. We heard no more from him on the subject of bikes!:

mattstant

I know jack **** about weapons and the military
but i do know its a commonly held misconception about robins migrating.
They blend in during the summer months because their red breasts arent as bright

GaryK

Bob,

How about asking him why you can't get even parity stop bits for printers these days, they only seem to do odd parity ones!!!!

BOB.T

Thanks for the replies chaps,it makes a nice change to get a reasoned reponse rather than the crap I have to listen to all day

So then, the Bloodhound, would that be the one they're shipping out to the middle east, should things kick off.... the one that has reportedly tracked an F117

Oh, there's one for you! They say the F117 has the same radar reflection as a flock of seagulls don't they? Well, I might be wrong but, seagulls won't get up to a few hundred mph will they, or fly into warzones for that matter?

Simon H, what do you fly matey? Will you be doing any more airshows, I'll have to pop along, you could take me for a spin Seriously though, I'd love to go to an airshow, haven't been for years, I'm missing mi jet noise

Will try to keep you all informed of the lastest tales

Bob

PS I thought I was right, re the Robins

BOB.T

oh yeah, what a parity fingy? It might be more convincing if I knew what it was / is

SimonH

Bob - sorry mate but it's as dull as dishwater really; I fly Hercs I'm afraid (as I think everyone on here knows anyway...it always manages to come up somehow ) - nothing pointy or exciting.



I say it's as dull as dishwater although I do like to think it beats the **** off sitting at a desk all day

Don't display at airshows - not flying anyway, just static displays. Didn't do any this year - was elsewere Have done Fairford, Cottesmore, Mildenhall, Waddington in the past. Season's pretty much over for the year but if I can get on any next summer then there's an open invite to any of you folks who want a look around

P1Fanatic

Didnt the RAF manage to track an F117 coming into the UK a couple of years ago for the International Air Tattoo at Fairford?

BOB.T

Hey, Herc's are cool, well I like em anyway We used to get them coming over here (Keighley, Skipton) 4 at a time and seriously low I've been to Mildenhall a few times, not for a while though, done Waddington once and Finnigley and Church Fenton loads, till they closed Are there any exotic features on your herc, mi Dad will more than likely have a photo of it! He's a plane nut but not the type that wears leather jacket or ask crap Q's

I was under the impression one of the stealth planes was tracked by a RAPIER.... I think they should of shot it down just to prove the point though