JTaylor

Steve001

iTrader: (7)

Tried the trick bit last year, "hey kid, forget the sweets, pick a card, any card"......went down like a lead balloon

Torquemada

for balance http://www.history.com/topics/hallow...y-of-halloween

JTaylor

Interpretatio Christiana.

Torquemada

Basically, yup.

People can believe what they want. I have pagan friends, I have Muslim friends, I have Jewish friends, I have Buddhist friends, I have what I would deem American Christian extremist friends (comparing to most believers I would know from UK), etc. etc., I have Catholic family (I was raised Catholic.) They don't put it on me, I don't call them mental or tell them their beliefs are false or whatever. Who am I to judge that stuff? It's not like I have the answers Doesn't make the origins of our holidays less interesting, of course

JTaylor

Matthew 7:13-14

I'm narrow minded.

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

Commercial b0ll0cks.

Torquemada

Well, if I was to say that I am focused on my having acceptance for others then you could apply that to me. These things are easily manipulated. Much like our other thread, where I deride quoting stats without context etc.
In any case, quoting biblical verses etc. becomes meaningless to those who have not decided to follow or have not been indoctrinated to that way of thinking/belief.

So, in conclusion, good for you. Feel how you like. I'm not going to subscribe to that, though

JTaylor

You've not thought this statement through.

john banks

Exclusivity claims based on faith are pretty obnoxious and tend to fade unless you are immersed in an environment that normalises them.

To then claim that someone else hasn't thought something through to draw them into debate on your terms is bad form too IMHO. The arrogance of Christian apologists knows no bounds. They are the ones with the burden of proof, not the people that require evidence for much less weighty beliefs than the ones that Christianity asks us to accept on blind faith.

Throw in a little bit of exclusivity, heaven vs hell, mind control, money, power, persecution and you have the entire recipe to develop delusional thinking, except that the definition of a delusion excludes religious belief.

JTaylor

Morning, Dr. Banks, I trust you're well. Torquemada's statement is badly thought through, no matter what one's starting point. There's no bad form; in fact to claim there is when there isn't is both bad form and badly thought through.

john banks

You can no longer see the bad form. It is OK, I couldn't either when I saw every non believer as a target for conversion.

Edit: I thought I was trying to help them discover redemption, and thought that was love. It wasn't. It was being a **** no matter how many arguments were won or how many kind acts done to attract people. I still thought the thing they needed was to believe what I believed, otherwise they went to hell. No point diluting it.

As a subsequent non believer, I can see people in a different light. If I want to help them or be kind, or act towards them better than I would hope anyone would act towards me, it comes from something other than hoping their eternal soul will be saved or from pleasing an invisible god. My relationships are far more wholesome now without that question resting over everything. I can also make choices on moral issues rather than having to interpret an ancient text written for a different culture and work out which of the absolutes are actually absolute and which are not.

Further edit: for example, now I support abortion, euthanasia, homosexual activity, do not believe you should be married to have sex and would decriminalise drugs. Not that I have so far personally taken advantage of any of these in the 20 years since I became an unbeliever as many Christians would claim you would after losing faith! If I die today, I'd say I've thrived after losing faith as have those around me as a direct consequence.

Torquemada

Nope, it's thought through, maybe used the wrong wording, I dunno, but I was pointing to where kids etc. are just born into being raised to believe various things, they have no choice to start out with. Same as I was brought up Catholic and may have said all sorts to those who thought differently to me, based upon what I was taught and accepting those teachings without critical thinking involved.

Still stands, people can quote versus and such at me, it doesn't mean anything to me and holds no power as I am not a 'believer'. There;s no debating that, really.

p.s. oh and if it's reference to the focus, broad and narrow thing, it's a load of baloney to me anyway but I accept that you want to believe that way of thinking, no problem!

JTaylor

Where does your morality come from, Dr. Banks?

JTaylor

Jesus often finished His parables with the words "whoever has ears, let them hear." How do you interpret this?

Torquemada

That is for believers to interpret, I don't need to.

But, it could be interpreted a bunch of ways:
If you have a set of earholes, have a listen
If you are a believer, hear my words of wisdom
Everyone should follow what I said if you've heard it
Etc. Etc. among a million other ways to read/hear it.
To me, it is a load of twaddle. Very clever wording, though, I feel like it could sucker some people in to feeling like they should follow or somehow feel left out of a collective.

I don't need to interpret or worry about words from the bible, that were allegedly said by a chap a couple of thousand years ago. Not my bag. Fine for others, as long as they don't impose it on others.....

I wouldn't follow this stuff any more than I would follow Greek or Roman gods 'wisdom' or any other religions 'teachings'.

Thor is awesome, though

john banks

It does not come from or require an imaginary higher being. You don't need me to summarise writings on moral philosophy.

Evangelism is uncomfortable not because you are battling evil and trying to win souls, but because part of you has doubt and deep down you suspect that you are peddling nonsense to the vulnerable whom you think you are helping to see the god sized hole within. You are protected from real persecution due to secular values. It feels uncomfortable because it makes you behave in a way that most people think is obnoxious, but you have normalised it.

I only dish this stuff out to evangelists. Enjoy your persecution

JTaylor

God knows the deep recesses of my heart. I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief.

I enjoy exchanges with apostates. There's a particular menace, a malevolence almost, that accompanies their words. Like Paul becoming Saul - an inversion of the Damascene mystery. They do not believe; help them overcome their belief.

I would be interested to hear your objection to The Moral Argument. I've yet to come across one that passes muster. In the interim I'll pray for you, Dr Banks.

john banks

Any menace from this apostate is against the damage that faith does, not against people of faith unless they do harm as a result, and not against the better parts of what Jesus is quoted as saying.

Faith cannot be reasoned with, it does not submit to scrutiny, evidence or examination. Yet it dictates behaviour and makes claims above all others.

If your belief in the resurrection of Jesus is the most important of all your beliefs, why does it require faith? The narrative seems to be that it is to obscure it from people like me that wanted to believe, but couldn't, to send us on a predestined route to hell. It is quite in character of the god of the bible to do this sort of thing, to weave and obfuscate and then pass judgement.

I'm with Thomas. He got his evidence (apparently). I didn't get mine. It felt dishonest to continue trying to believe something for which there was no evidence (don't bore me with debating it, I read apologetics books and could convince others where I couldn't convince myself) and whose god behaves like a petty, jealous, obfuscating warmonger that supports child rape and child sacrifice and presides over a cluster**** of death and disease because his creation disobeyed and/or sought knowledge (+/- of good/evil) when it was left there to tempt. Social services would have a field day with a parent like that. So should we.

Edit: I'm not sure you should enjoy exchanges with apostates. Depending on your interpretation, they are a depressing reminder that you too could follow the same path if your faith runs out, which since it is a feeling and apparently a gift, is outwith your control. They are a reminder of the precarious state of your eternal destiny in the hands of a malevolent counterparty (the god of the bible). Yet they earnestly sought and asked too, but did not receive and made the only reasonable conclusion. They are the reminder of an idea that your god may actually abandon you or that you are bound for hell too. Alternatively, and this is my hope, that they might aid in your own "enlightenment".

It was the charismatic movement that promised signs and wonders that actually made me think I could believe in 1990 as a naive/sheltered but educated teen. In the end, the conclusion I obviously reached is that it was all an imaginary sham. There were no healings in any medically verifiable way, no true prophecy, just cold reading. Without the claims of signs and wonders, I wouldn't have given it all a second thought, but it hookwinked me for 7 years and took over my life. How long since you converted now? Are you of the view that there is anything tangible we can see to convince us? The people in the first century needed it, we need it more now. Cessasationists be damned

JTaylor

Sedition.