Muscle Building
28 May 2002, 07:01 PM
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I've been spending a lot of money and loads of hours in the gym over the last 6 or so months for very little gain in terms of muscle size. I've not been overtraining and I've not been eating as well as I could yet still very little growth (fairly good strength increase though) Anyone got any good advice, techniques, foods, suppliments, etc
Nothing illegal or dangerous please.
Nothing illegal or dangerous please.
28 May 2002, 07:06 PM
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ok put very simply muscles are a collection of fibre
when you train high reps low weight - you train all the fibres - hence you are stronger and leaner - but not bigger - this is good for endurance sports - rowing/swimming/ etc
when you lift High weight low reps (5 max) you build ONE or TWO very strong fibre that grows in thickness. building mucle bulk or size. - eg weightlifter, javelin etc
So if you want bigger muscles - high weight low reps - high protein diet - is the way forward
(buy a book - arnold schwartanegger (encyclopedia of bodybuilding)
Fantastic
hth - chris t
28 May 2002, 07:22 PM
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Nothing illegal or dangerous please.
28 May 2002, 07:27 PM
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That's a fair point about the pro's - they all have more chemicals in their veins that renton and sick boy put together but I'm not looking to be that big. Men's Health cover dude would be nice. Would like to achieve the bulk first and then work on retaining it and improving the shape, etc
28 May 2002, 07:28 PM
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i got to about 19 stone with very low b/fat when i trained about 10 years ago.
i ate lots and lots and lots- even use to get up early for some high protein breaky so i didnt go to long overnight without anything!
as for training you need to go heavy and low reps as explained, i used to go as low as 2 or 3 reps. i also belive in the idea of short heavy work outs, i never spent more than 45 mins in the gym.
so for a chest day i may do 1 warm set of bench press, 1 heavy set and 1 real heavy then do some incline bench press same again then go home- total time on chest 20 mins. i used to do a body part every 5 days. ( i was lucky cause i worked in a gym for years so i could do 2 sessions in a day every day for free)
also, i never trained small body parts- ie. i never did a bicep curl in my life, my biceps were big though! if you are doing massive dead lifts and rows and chins for you back you dont need to do curls! same goes for triceps.
in fact 90% of the time i was doing either back, chest or legs, as for abbs i did them every free chance i had (working in the gym meant i did about 1000 a day!)
as for supplements they work but so does good diet, they are also expensive if you get into it proper (and most frustrating is that the not quite legal option is half the price and about 5 times better! but ilegal of course and should be frowned upon! )
Tiggs
i ate lots and lots and lots- even use to get up early for some high protein breaky so i didnt go to long overnight without anything!
as for training you need to go heavy and low reps as explained, i used to go as low as 2 or 3 reps. i also belive in the idea of short heavy work outs, i never spent more than 45 mins in the gym.
so for a chest day i may do 1 warm set of bench press, 1 heavy set and 1 real heavy then do some incline bench press same again then go home- total time on chest 20 mins. i used to do a body part every 5 days. ( i was lucky cause i worked in a gym for years so i could do 2 sessions in a day every day for free)
also, i never trained small body parts- ie. i never did a bicep curl in my life, my biceps were big though! if you are doing massive dead lifts and rows and chins for you back you dont need to do curls! same goes for triceps.
in fact 90% of the time i was doing either back, chest or legs, as for abbs i did them every free chance i had (working in the gym meant i did about 1000 a day!)
as for supplements they work but so does good diet, they are also expensive if you get into it proper (and most frustrating is that the not quite legal option is half the price and about 5 times better! but ilegal of course and should be frowned upon! )
Tiggs
28 May 2002, 07:29 PM
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That's a fair point about the pro's - they all have more chemicals in their veins that renton and sick boy put together but I'm not looking to be that big. Men's Health cover dude would be nice. Would like to achieve the bulk first and then work on retaining it and improving the shape, etc
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28 May 2002, 07:34 PM
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"Nothing illegal or dangerous please" interesting that 90% of ppl want to do it natural then follow the advice of arnold etc!
get hold of some arnold pics of when he was young! something very un-natural going on there!
i remember reading his autobio. when i was 14-15 and realised i was as big as him at that age- each year i worked out and yet the pics of arnold showing his development over his teen yrs seem to be growing a lot quicker than me!
T
get hold of some arnold pics of when he was young! something very un-natural going on there!
i remember reading his autobio. when i was 14-15 and realised i was as big as him at that age- each year i worked out and yet the pics of arnold showing his development over his teen yrs seem to be growing a lot quicker than me!
T
28 May 2002, 07:38 PM
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Having dabbled once with the "illegal and dangerous" side, they are very effective! I have friends who regularly take what I would consider to be large amounts of chemicals, but the pros take more in 1 day than they do in a month. I went to a talk at my gym by a pro and the amount of **** he took would cost your average bloke over £30,000 a year. Sobering thought, huh?
28 May 2002, 07:43 PM
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Well for me, I work out for both definition and strength. I can't afford to gain any unecessary muscle mass or it'll slow me down when it comes to martial arts. I've got a body thats not disimilar to Bruce Lee (before he got thin). Speed and Strength is fun. Dunno if I want to go through my dad's former route where he really packed up on the muscle mass.
The fun thing about genetics though is that I'll never get even if I stop training. I'll end up losing weight and mass though.
The fun thing about genetics though is that I'll never get even if I stop training. I'll end up losing weight and mass though.
28 May 2002, 07:51 PM
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rev,
its a mad game! i remember when a pro body builder (munzer i think? ) died and one of the mags ran a list of what he "allegedly" took- it was amazing he found time to train!!! and there was me worrying that every headache i had was a tumour cause of a dabble!
its a pity its got like that- the blokes from the late 60's (just prior to arnold's take over) were big enough yet they would even get a look in at a local show now!
T
ps- this is a review from amazon of the arnold book mentioned by chris, im affraid its a pretty good review! (also- the book it does suggest is what got me to 19 stone! )
" It never ceases to amaze me just how much so-called "professional" bodybuilders know about building pumped-up, functionally useless tissue, as opposed to building real muscle the natural way. This book is a veritable compendium of just about everything that is WRONG in the sport of modern bodybuilding.
As I looked over the workout routines contained within, it became readily apparent that these routines could benefit ONLY those exceptionally genetically disposed for bodybuilding and/or those individuals taking steroids. Of course, I realize that one isn't expected to lift all the workout routines directly from the book, as your workouts should be tailored to your individual needs. However, the amount of revision necessary to make the routines worthwhile to typical drug-free trainees renders this volume worthless. In addition the instructions detailing how the exercises are to be performed are, in some instances, incredibly bad. For example, look at the instructions regarding the bench press. The text clearly states that your feet should be flat on the floor, and is accompanied by a photo of Ahhhnold with his feet on the bench (a DANGEROUS practice). The book is filled with such irregularities, and other downright dangerous exercises as well. The research behind the exercise physiology herein is dubious at best.
There is a plethora of photographs of pro bodybuilders, past and present, which are supposedly inspiring. I strongly suspect that many (if not all) of these bodybuilders used or abused steroids, and this doesn't impress or inspire me in the least (neither do heroin addicts.)
As for the section on nutrition, it's simply outdated. This nutritional advice may have worked for Ahhhnold when he was in his bodybuilding prime, but remember that his prime was QUITE some time ago (and we've all learned a thing or two since he last competed.)
The Bottom Line: Don't waste your money on this book, as it is only useful to genetically gifted and/or drug assisted bodybuilders, and not the general public. If you want SOUND advice regarding building muscle and becoming physically fit, I recommend that you purchase a copy of "Beyond Brawn" along with "The Insider's Tell-All Handbook On Weight-Training Technique" (both authored by Stuart Mc Robert.) Your body will thank you for it in the long run."
its a mad game! i remember when a pro body builder (munzer i think? ) died and one of the mags ran a list of what he "allegedly" took- it was amazing he found time to train!!! and there was me worrying that every headache i had was a tumour cause of a dabble!
its a pity its got like that- the blokes from the late 60's (just prior to arnold's take over) were big enough yet they would even get a look in at a local show now!
T
ps- this is a review from amazon of the arnold book mentioned by chris, im affraid its a pretty good review! (also- the book it does suggest is what got me to 19 stone! )
" It never ceases to amaze me just how much so-called "professional" bodybuilders know about building pumped-up, functionally useless tissue, as opposed to building real muscle the natural way. This book is a veritable compendium of just about everything that is WRONG in the sport of modern bodybuilding.
As I looked over the workout routines contained within, it became readily apparent that these routines could benefit ONLY those exceptionally genetically disposed for bodybuilding and/or those individuals taking steroids. Of course, I realize that one isn't expected to lift all the workout routines directly from the book, as your workouts should be tailored to your individual needs. However, the amount of revision necessary to make the routines worthwhile to typical drug-free trainees renders this volume worthless. In addition the instructions detailing how the exercises are to be performed are, in some instances, incredibly bad. For example, look at the instructions regarding the bench press. The text clearly states that your feet should be flat on the floor, and is accompanied by a photo of Ahhhnold with his feet on the bench (a DANGEROUS practice). The book is filled with such irregularities, and other downright dangerous exercises as well. The research behind the exercise physiology herein is dubious at best.
There is a plethora of photographs of pro bodybuilders, past and present, which are supposedly inspiring. I strongly suspect that many (if not all) of these bodybuilders used or abused steroids, and this doesn't impress or inspire me in the least (neither do heroin addicts.)
As for the section on nutrition, it's simply outdated. This nutritional advice may have worked for Ahhhnold when he was in his bodybuilding prime, but remember that his prime was QUITE some time ago (and we've all learned a thing or two since he last competed.)
The Bottom Line: Don't waste your money on this book, as it is only useful to genetically gifted and/or drug assisted bodybuilders, and not the general public. If you want SOUND advice regarding building muscle and becoming physically fit, I recommend that you purchase a copy of "Beyond Brawn" along with "The Insider's Tell-All Handbook On Weight-Training Technique" (both authored by Stuart Mc Robert.) Your body will thank you for it in the long run."
28 May 2002, 07:58 PM
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Katana I like your thinking 
I'm not so bothered about the legality of steriods, etc but more so the side effects - I don't want my heart to blow up or my *ahem* bits to shrivel.
I like the idea of low reps higher wieght. I traditionally do 3 sets of 8 reps but I'll try dropping that to 4-5 reps at as high a weight as possible for a while and see what happens.
I've heard creatine mentioned a lot, what is that and is it useful?
I'm not so bothered about the legality of steriods, etc but more so the side effects - I don't want my heart to blow up or my *ahem* bits to shrivel.
I like the idea of low reps higher wieght. I traditionally do 3 sets of 8 reps but I'll try dropping that to 4-5 reps at as high a weight as possible for a while and see what happens.
I've heard creatine mentioned a lot, what is that and is it useful?
28 May 2002, 08:01 PM
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Creatine just helps you recover quicker. I used to take it, but the amount of water that I was taking and the fact that it gave me cramps made me stop. I might use some if I need to gain mass again like I used to, but I'm quite happy the way I am.
I'm like a scooby, I may only have a 2 litre engine, but I think I have the power of a V8.
I'm like a scooby, I may only have a 2 litre engine, but I think I have the power of a V8.
28 May 2002, 08:12 PM
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creatine is ok, if you find you suffer with recovery then try it- it wont make you big though.
T
ps- if steroids (at low levels) are as dangerous as is often suggested then get ready for a lot of people to start getting ill (most "big" actors of the 80'/90's, a whole lot of NFL players, most of the WWF, the lucky ones from track and field that never got caught to name a few! )
T
ps- if steroids (at low levels) are as dangerous as is often suggested then get ready for a lot of people to start getting ill (most "big" actors of the 80'/90's, a whole lot of NFL players, most of the WWF, the lucky ones from track and field that never got caught to name a few! )
28 May 2002, 08:21 PM
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The Stuart McRobert books certainly are excellent (I bought "Brawn" a good few years back). They'll get you much further than the weider/celebrity stuff. Good common sense advice for normal folks. Website at http://www.hardgainer.com
28 May 2002, 08:22 PM
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I wondered how long it would take for the "shrivelled bits" comment.
On personal experience, and that of friends, it doesn't happen. In fact, certain steroids have the opposite effect. Think about it: it's extra testosterone, the stuff that makes you a man!
On personal experience, and that of friends, it doesn't happen. In fact, certain steroids have the opposite effect. Think about it: it's extra testosterone, the stuff that makes you a man!
28 May 2002, 08:30 PM
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Mates of mine 'juice'. You do have to research it carefully first, and use proper therapy to get your natural test production back on track afterwards, but in sensible amounts it doesn't seem to do a lot of harm
28 May 2002, 08:43 PM
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I've been working out for 4 years now....
In six months your just prepairing for the future, if you want to get big you'll need to work hard, have a good diet and stay well motivated!
It's not easy..... which is a good thing!
You have to set yourself some goals, what do you want from your body
lean muscle mass, chiseled body, strong and fit, big and bulky it's your choice just be realistic.
I go to the Gym 6 times a week at lunch time, practice full free combat martial arts and do endurance training with the American Marines, sometimes it takes over your life but luckily my wife is into the same stuff.....
try measuring your body now then measure again in six months time NOT BEFORE!
And don't forget mix up your routines sometimes legs, back, arms
and chest swap em around, don't always follow the same order.
Stay focused!
Plums.
P.S. after workout stretching accelerates muscle growth.
28 May 2002, 10:14 PM
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Nr 1 most important thing. Eat! Many people train hard but complain they dont grow their muscles very quickly. Most of em do 1000000 reps everyday and eat like rabbits. Eat quality food if you can, but any food is better than none. Dont expect not to bulk up a bit, including some fat before you can look "big" whilst lean (couple of yrs to go min.). Eat eat eat eat eat eat eat eat eat,.... oh, and remember to eat! (Side note: If you are serious, expect to spend cash not just on protien powder but on clothes to as you keep growing out of em!)
Drink lots of water.
Train to failure (dont be a wuss like all the other wanna bes).
Use weights that you can perform "quality" reps with, i.e. good form. You will progress quicker than the "swingers" and cheaters u see strutting about cus they had 5Kg more on the bar than you. You'll have the last laugh, and less injuries.
Rest well. Get good sleep.
Split your body parts into sensible seperate programs (after 6 mnths u should be).
Don't expect BIG gains to come immediately unless u want to try <cough> special supplements.
Dont use pre competition workout routines printed in Flex etc. for Pros.
Dont expect to ever look like any of the Mr Universe contenders unless you are willing to take drugs.
It's a tough road you wish to follow. Very strict and can be unsociable e.g. high protien=farts, always in the gym when u r mates r in the pub etc.
Stick at it and it will happen. Have patience.
Good luck
Drink lots of water.
Train to failure (dont be a wuss like all the other wanna bes).
Use weights that you can perform "quality" reps with, i.e. good form. You will progress quicker than the "swingers" and cheaters u see strutting about cus they had 5Kg more on the bar than you. You'll have the last laugh, and less injuries.
Rest well. Get good sleep.
Split your body parts into sensible seperate programs (after 6 mnths u should be).
Don't expect BIG gains to come immediately unless u want to try <cough> special supplements.
Dont use pre competition workout routines printed in Flex etc. for Pros.
Dont expect to ever look like any of the Mr Universe contenders unless you are willing to take drugs.
It's a tough road you wish to follow. Very strict and can be unsociable e.g. high protien=farts, always in the gym when u r mates r in the pub etc.
Stick at it and it will happen. Have patience.
Good luck
28 May 2002, 10:21 PM
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Theres only one way!..and by the sound of it,its not for you.
There is no way to get big quick,not even on the gear.
Its just down to hard work,and determination.
If you take the route of steroids,which if I was you I wouldnt,
take a look through a book called the STEROID BIBLE you can buy it off AMAZON.COM its an unbias representation by people who know the score.One of the dangers involved with taking drugs what ever they are,is the fact that your getting them on the black market and could be buying anything.This book tells you what the product should be like and it tells you of the advantages,and dangers of taking them.
Buy the way,Ive been gymin it on and off for 18 years,tried everything seen everything,its a large learning curve,that some people have tried to learn quickly,and have ended up fallin off!
There is no way to get big quick,not even on the gear.
Its just down to hard work,and determination.
If you take the route of steroids,which if I was you I wouldnt,
take a look through a book called the STEROID BIBLE you can buy it off AMAZON.COM its an unbias representation by people who know the score.One of the dangers involved with taking drugs what ever they are,is the fact that your getting them on the black market and could be buying anything.This book tells you what the product should be like and it tells you of the advantages,and dangers of taking them.
Buy the way,Ive been gymin it on and off for 18 years,tried everything seen everything,its a large learning curve,that some people have tried to learn quickly,and have ended up fallin off!
28 May 2002, 10:28 PM
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Hey Katana,
Tell that to someone like Terry O'Neil or Billy Blanks!
Saxo Boy: For some interesting reading check out some of Mike Menzas(sp?) stuff. Also that Steriod Bible is the definitive guide. Not that I am condoning steriod use, but if you ever get tempted, be educated.
or it'll slow me down when it comes to martial arts
Saxo Boy: For some interesting reading check out some of Mike Menzas(sp?) stuff. Also that Steriod Bible is the definitive guide. Not that I am condoning steriod use, but if you ever get tempted, be educated.
28 May 2002, 10:35 PM
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Molds, Billy Blanks, despite his size is lean when you look at his height to weight ratio. I'm only 5'7" and if I were to weigh around 250 lbs like Mr Blank, would be really encumbered (Bollo Yeong comes to mind).
Do you watch WWF? If you have the old tapes, look at HHH when he was younger and leaner. See how fast he was. Now look at him now (even before the thigh operation), he may look extremely amazing (not gay), but he's a lot slower than he used to be.
As for me, though I am fairly competant when it comes to groundfighting, I'd rather rely on my speed and power. Too much bulk would just literally slow me down and tire me out sooner. Don't believe me? Ask Royce Gracie and the other small fighters who's killed giants (in the early days of UFC of course before the weight restriction
).
edit ~ Mike Menza? Wasn't he the one with the big fore arms during Arnie's and Lou ferrigno's time? Thats who my dad tried to emulate.
[Edited by Katana - 5/28/2002 10:36:38 PM]
Do you watch WWF? If you have the old tapes, look at HHH when he was younger and leaner. See how fast he was. Now look at him now (even before the thigh operation), he may look extremely amazing (not gay), but he's a lot slower than he used to be.
As for me, though I am fairly competant when it comes to groundfighting, I'd rather rely on my speed and power. Too much bulk would just literally slow me down and tire me out sooner. Don't believe me? Ask Royce Gracie and the other small fighters who's killed giants (in the early days of UFC of course before the weight restriction
).edit ~ Mike Menza? Wasn't he the one with the big fore arms during Arnie's and Lou ferrigno's time? Thats who my dad tried to emulate.
[Edited by Katana - 5/28/2002 10:36:38 PM]
28 May 2002, 10:51 PM
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Katana, would agree Billy is quite lean but not a small guy in terms of musculature.
Not farmiliar with WWF fighters. I do take your point though. I was being devils advocate a little bit as a lot of martial artists spout the old lines about muscle hindering them. Reckon if you retain your flexibility and stamina with it you can pack on some reasonable muscle, but agree full on body builder by definition would not make the best martial artist.
>>I am fairly competant when it comes to groundfighting<<
Out of interest what kind of m/a do you do? Sorry thread-jacking
Not sure I would describe the Gracies as being small? They are certainly stocky. Definitely wouldn't question their prowess, on here or anywhere, especially if one of them was in the room. lol
>>edit ~ Mike Menza? Wasn't he the one with the big fore arms during Arnie's and Lou ferrigno's time? Thats who my dad tried to emulate.<<
Maybe? Can't remember him in the earlier days. I took more notice of him and his work in more recent times.
Not farmiliar with WWF fighters. I do take your point though. I was being devils advocate a little bit as a lot of martial artists spout the old lines about muscle hindering them. Reckon if you retain your flexibility and stamina with it you can pack on some reasonable muscle, but agree full on body builder by definition would not make the best martial artist.
>>I am fairly competant when it comes to groundfighting<<
Out of interest what kind of m/a do you do? Sorry thread-jacking
Not sure I would describe the Gracies as being small? They are certainly stocky. Definitely wouldn't question their prowess, on here or anywhere, especially if one of them was in the room. lol
>>edit ~ Mike Menza? Wasn't he the one with the big fore arms during Arnie's and Lou ferrigno's time? Thats who my dad tried to emulate.<<
Maybe? Can't remember him in the earlier days. I took more notice of him and his work in more recent times.
28 May 2002, 11:00 PM
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I've done Taekwondo (1st dan), Muay Thai (in Thailand for 2 months), Kickboxing, Freestyle fighting, etc.
Most of the style I did was more to do with stand up fighting. As for grappling, I've had private lessons from friends that teaches Jujitsu (not brazilian), Silat (not Penchack or whatever you call it, never heard of in Malaysia, from my granddad and uncles) and Judo. Nothing official, especially the Silat bit as its a family thing.
Carjackers? I ain't scared of no stinking carjackers.
Most of the style I did was more to do with stand up fighting. As for grappling, I've had private lessons from friends that teaches Jujitsu (not brazilian), Silat (not Penchack or whatever you call it, never heard of in Malaysia, from my granddad and uncles) and Judo. Nothing official, especially the Silat bit as its a family thing.
Carjackers? I ain't scared of no stinking carjackers.
28 May 2002, 11:31 PM
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Katana are there any clubs in Wales that do the Brazilian J J that you know of, or any style of ground fighting? Ive been following the various styles for years (Gracies, Mario Sperry, shamrock) their all stars.
Cheers
scrappy
Cheers
scrappy
28 May 2002, 11:36 PM
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I wouldn't know for sure. I know there are quite a few in London and Scotland. Just buy a copy of Martial Arts Illustrated and look at the back pages.
If there are no classes in Wales, just try a bit of Judo. They are similar in certain ways. Judo may seem a bit slower pace but you'll basically end up with the same arsenal at the end of it.
Besides, the rage now is not to stick to one martial art, but to cross-train in several different ones.
edit ~ try to ask the people in www.Sherdog.com. I used to troll there under a different name. Hell if you're lucky, Royce Gracie or Ian Freeman might even reply to you. I stoped because I've found my true calling in life, cars.
[Edited by Katana - 5/28/2002 11:38:34 PM]
If there are no classes in Wales, just try a bit of Judo. They are similar in certain ways. Judo may seem a bit slower pace but you'll basically end up with the same arsenal at the end of it.
Besides, the rage now is not to stick to one martial art, but to cross-train in several different ones.
edit ~ try to ask the people in www.Sherdog.com. I used to troll there under a different name. Hell if you're lucky, Royce Gracie or Ian Freeman might even reply to you. I stoped because I've found my true calling in life, cars.
[Edited by Katana - 5/28/2002 11:38:34 PM]
