MTR

This is the reply I posted to this thread in General.
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthrea...6&page=1&pp=20

Mr S. Burton,
Subaru UK Ltd.
Ryder Street
West Bromwhich,
West Midlands,
B70 0EJ
1/05/04

Dear Mr Burton,
I purchased my first Subaru Impreza Turbo in October 1997, (a MY98) and have subsequently purchased a MY99, MY00 and my current MY02 WRX STi Type UK, Prodrive Style with Prodrive Performance Pack.
I have been extremely please with the ownership of my Imprezas and the driving pleasure they have given me, so much so that I am contemplating purchasing car number five. An Impreza Turbo WRX STi type UK MY04 with Prodrive Performance Pack.

The only potential drawback is the insurance aspect of attempting to insure an STI with the PPP kit fitted. (PPP = Prodrive Performance Pack).

I would like to point out that I am 45 years old, work in the aerospace industry as a senior manufacturing engineer, and have a clean driving licence with no insurance claims for 25 years, and my car is kept in an alarmed garage.
However even with all these positive elements, the vast majority of insurance companies do not quote on the WRX STi Type UK, unless it is standard.
The moment the PPP kit is mentioned, they have no idea what it comprises of, who fits it (the Subaru dealer) and as a consequence will not insure the car.

It is with some surprise I found that if I try and insure myself on a Impreza WR1 (which is in essence a modified/uprated STi with PPP, springs, driving lights, wheels & DCCD fitted) I have no problem, due to the vehicle in its final form i.e. with its modifications already fitted, being listed with the insurance industry.

Subaru UK (IM) have deemed it prudent to have the Impreza WR1, a vehicle with a limited production run of 500 units, registered with the UK insurance industry, and therefore enabled prospective owners to easily get insurance cover.
I am surprised and a little disappointed that given the potential volume of sales for PPP’d equipped Impreza STi’s and of course WRX’s, which are not constrained to a limited production run, the same notification to the insurance industry has not been carried out.

I am quite positive that if this was the case then Subaru UK, the dealer network and Prodrive would be able to capture a greater share of the lucrative tuning market cash flow.
As the situation currently stands the only incentive to buy the PPP kit as opposed to potentially cheaper, and in my opinion technically inferior aftermarket products, is the manufactures warranty is upheld with the PPP.
Whatever tuning option is pursued, the insurance industry don’t like it, and will quote accordingly.

I feel that Subaru UK, their dealer network, and Prodrive are missing out on substantially increased sales and profit of PPP kits circa £1600 for WRX, £2000 for STi’s caused simply on the inability of a large section of your customer base being unable to get insurance at a reasonable cost.
As a marketing exercise getting the PPP specced cars listed with the insurance industry, as they are already shown in the Subaru literature in the dealers showrooms, would tempt far more buyers to actually buy the cars with PPP fitted in the first place.

In my opinion the standard STi type UK is an abysmal car to drive until PPP is fitted, then it is an absolute joy. With PPP It is possible to drive very sedately, without the all or nothing power delivery of the original car.
I understand about why the car is imported in this form to comply with EEC emission regulations, but prospective buyers are probably put off by its mannerisms as standard, and the insurance problems when modified.
Hence no sale.
They probably go and buy a standard BMW.

I apologise for my rather long winded letter, but feel that this really is an opportunity to create a Win-Win situation, for you (Subaru UK) the dealer network and Prodrive with increased turnover in cars and PPP kits fitted to existing cars sold, and the lessened problems associated by owners like myself in insuring their cars.

Every opportunity to reduce the negative aspects of ownership for your customers can only help in building a stronger and more loyal customer base.
And more importantly for you, increase profits.
I’m sure you would agree, that is a good thing..

Yours Faithfully
Mr *****

************************************************** ****

I followed that letter up with a second letter the next day.

Mr S. Burton, Subaru UK Ltd.
Ryder Street,
West Bromwhich
West Midlands,
B70 0EJ

2/05/04

Dear Mr Burton,
Further to my letter of the 1/5/04 regarding getting the Prodrive Performance Pack (PPP kit) specced WRX STi Type UK’s and the WRX’s listed with the insurance industry as standard cars, the same as happened with the STi WR1.

I have read recently about Subaru’s intention to fit ‘black box recorders’ for want of a better description to their vehicles to try and combat the growing trend of owners to illegally (with regards manufactures warranty) modify their cars with aftermarket products, and then make fraudulent claims for repairs when failures occur.

If Subaru registered the PPP specced cars with the insurance industry allowing them to be insured as standard i.e. as produced by the manufacturer (in this case Subaru + Prodrive) then the temptation for owners to modify their cars with aftermarket products, which the insurance companies will increase premiums for, will be reduced.

Faced with the option of PPP kit = full warranty + no loading on your insurance premium, + no fraudulent claims against Subaru UK. (Hopefully no claims at all, as the vehicle is built to a defined standard which should be safe)

Versus,

Modify car yourself with aftermarket kit = no legal warranty, (but fraudulent claims anyway which Subaru UK end up paying for), + increased premiums for driving a modified car.

Then the PPP option is better for the customer and perhaps more importantly to you, potentially better for Subaru UK, especially the warranty claims division.

Everybody within the industry recognises that people can and do modify their cars, and then simply remove the ‘kit’ prior to wheeling the car top the dealers for it to be repaired. Hence the speculation regarding the ‘black boxes’.

By making aftermarket tuning financially less attractive to the customer due to increased insurance premiums, compared to the Subaru approved, fitted and warranted PPP kit, you could potentially eliminate the aftermarket tuning and warranty repair problem faced by Subaru UK.

Yours Faithfully
Mr ******


************************************************** ********
This is his reply.

6 May 2004

Dear Mr ***

Thank you for your recent letters and I really do appreciate you taking the trouble of writing to me and outlining your thoughts. I agree with most of the points you make.

It is equally frustrating for us endeavouring to educate the insurance industry on the merits of the PPP's we market in association with Prodrive. We understand the dilemmas our customers face when they attempt to explain the situation with their insures. For that reason we decided two years ago to appoint Schofield Insurance as our officially appointed 'Subaru Insured' broker due to the fact that they understand our vehicles and communicate effectively with the main head insures. I recommend that you speak to Tom Butler at Schofield Insurance when you next require insurance as he is an STi owner and understands the value of PPP's. His telephone number is 0113 250 0377.

Yours sincerely
Sam Burton
Managing Director

************************************************** *****
I also wrote to Simon Lines and Mike Wood at Prodrive at the same time.

Mike,
Did Simon Lines pass on my comments about getting the STi PPP classified with the insurance companies to enable easier insurance cover, & possibly increase PPP sales?
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthre...t=318699&page=2
Its becoming somewhat repetative on Scoobynet where I have to defend the PPP against other aftermarket products.
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthre...75&page=1&pp=20
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthre...t=321382&page=2
I'm positive if the PPP equipped cars were easier to insure, as they would be classified as std like the WR1, then sales could increase, and you wouldn't see as many people opting for the aftermarket, part time builders/car tuning company route. It seems ludicrous to me that there are so many people spending money with companies with little if any geniune expertise. I'm sure Subaru Uk and Prodrives market share could be increased with the right strategy.

Cheers
MTR

************************************************** *******


So unless they have a change of heart and get the STI and WRX PPP specced cars listed with the ABI we will always be paying to insure 'modified' cars.

Cheers
MTR

urban

iTrader: (1)

Brilliant,

Maybe he also needs to be told that even though they appointed Scofield's officially as "Subaru Insured" and they understand out vehicles blah blah blah, its just a real pity that even after 2 fecking years they still won't provide cover in Northern Ireland.

Shaun

MattW

With the greated respect to Rum and his colleagues at Schofields, in the time I owned Imprezas they were never the most cost effective option as far as insurance was concerned. Granted, they have many happy customers but as you well know Insurers target particular markets so whoever is cheapest for a 20 year old high performance driver is not necessarily the cheapest on the same car for a middle aged driver.

I do sympathise with you, I feel Subaru\IM could do so much more, after all they manage to do it with the WR1 and Mitsubishi do it with their various Evo flavours. The number of threads on here stating "my insurance has been cancelled now i have PPP" is testament to the potential help that could be given.

MTR

I have created this edited version of my two letters I sent to Sam Burton the then managing director of Subaru UK. The new MD is Mr Peter Kinnaird.
Perhaps if everyone who owns a PPP'd specced WRX or STi Impreza copied and pasted this letter, and sent a copy to Prodrive and Subaru UK they might take some notice?

It will only cost you the price of two stamps/letters, and a couple of sheets of A4 paper.

Prodrives address is:

Mr D. Richards
Prodrive
Banbury
Oxfordshire
OX16 3ER
England


Mr Peter Kinnaird
Subaru UK Ltd.
Ryder Street
West Bromwhich,
West Midlands,
B70 0EJ

Dear Mr Kinnaird,
I have been extremely please with the ownership of my (type model type) PPP, and the driving pleasure it has given me.
The only potential drawback is the insurance aspect of attempting to insure an (type model type) with the PPP kit fitted. (PPP = Prodrive Performance Pack).

I would like to point out that I am (type age )years old, and have a clean driving licence (delet if not applicable) with (type number of years) number of years no claims bonus.
However even with all these positive elements, the vast majority of insurance companies do not quote on the WRX or WRX STi Type UK, unless it is standard.
The moment the PPP kit is mentioned, they have no idea what it comprises of, or that its fitted by the Subaru dealer, and as a consequence will not insure the car.

It is with some surprise I found that if I try and insure myself on a Impreza WR1 (which is in essence a modified/uprated STi with PPP, springs, driving lights, wheels & DCCD fitted) I have no problem, due to the vehicle in its final form i.e. with its modifications already fitted, being listed with the insurance industry.

Subaru UK (IM) have deemed it prudent to have the Impreza WR1, a vehicle with a limited production run of 500 units, registered with the UK insurance industry, and therefore enabled prospective owners to easily get insurance cover, just as Mitsibushi have done with their EVO FQ300/320/340/400 models.

I am surprised and a little disappointed that given the potential volume of sales for PPP’d equipped Impreza STi’s and of course WRX’s, which are not constrained to a limited production run, the same notification to the insurance industry has not been carried out.

I am quite positive that if this was the case then Subaru UK, the dealer network and Prodrive would be able to capture a greater share of the lucrative tuning market cash flow.
As the situation currently stands the only incentive to buy the PPP kit as opposed to potentially cheaper, and in my opinion technically inferior aftermarket products, is the manufactures warranty is upheld with the PPP.
Whatever tuning option is pursued, the insurance industry don’t like it, and will quote accordingly.

I feel that Subaru UK, their dealer network, and Prodrive are missing out on substantially increased sales and profit of PPP kits circa £1600 for WRX, £2000 for STi’s caused simply on the inability of a large section of your customer base being unable to get insurance at a reasonable cost.
As a marketing exercise getting the PPP specced cars listed with the insurance industry, as they are already shown in the Subaru literature in the dealers showrooms, would tempt far more buyers to actually buy the cars with PPP fitted in the first place, and not perhaps be tempted by one of the far cheaper to insure EVO models.

I feel that this really is an opportunity to create a Win-Win situation, for you (Subaru UK) the dealer network and Prodrive with increased turnover in cars and PPP kits fitted to existing cars sold, and the lessened problems associated by owners like myself in insuring their cars.

Every opportunity to reduce the negative aspects of ownership for your customers can only help in building a stronger and more loyal customer base.
And more importantly for you, increase profits.
I’m sure you would agree, that is a good thing.

Additionally this would have the added bonus of making aftermarket tuning financially less attractive to the customer due to increased insurance premiums, compared to the Subaru approved, fitted and warranted PPP kit, you could potentially eliminate the aftermarket tuning and warranty repair problem faced by Subaru UK.


Yours Faithfully
(insert name)


Cheers
MTR

MTR

Just to say I have added the letter I sent to Simon Lines and Mike Wood at Prodrive at the time I sent Sam Burtons letter on my first post of this thread.

Cheers
MTR

Rum*

Alas and with regard to Northern Ireland, these things are just not that easy! If they were then Direct Line, Privilege, Tescos, Barclays, Barclaycard, Amex, B&Q, Virgin, Liv Vic etc would all being providing rates for you :-( I am trying (as I have been for the last 3 years) and I promise that the solution is not too far off....whether we are going to be the most competitive for all remains to be seen...but we are working on rates for you all over the water...

MTR with the greatest of respect (and I know we go back quite a long way) hitting IM/Subaru with numerous letters from numerous owners really won't assist in resolving this matter...IM/Subaru (and Subaru Insured) are FULLY aware of the situation and we are ALL working on trying to resolve the matter for owners...if it was that easy I can assure that Sam Burton and more recently Peter Kinnaird would have put this matter to bed a long time ago!!

Your letters will NOT have fallen on deaf ears...but drumming up a load of letters from the community won't assist at this stage...a single letter is more than sufficient for all parties involved to look further into the issue

The fact of the matter is that to date the PPP for WRX and STI is an "aftermarket" modification...and as such it is NOT ABI registered ... now I agree and accept that this particular modification is manufacturer and manufacturer warranty friendly, however the fact of the matter is the modification is still and aftermarket mod!!

The WR1 is NOT a modified vehicle...just like the P1 was not a Jap Spec STI...they were/are both UK type approved vehicles and as such they both have an ABI coding and as such UK insurers are able to easily apply a rate to/for them...

With regard to your own case...have you called us/me to get a quote?? If you have owned the vehicle for more than 12 months (which I believe you have)....and have not had a claim in that time (which I believe to be the case)...then we are more than likely able to offer you a quotation...and with a little luck the quote we offer will be competitive within the market I can assure you that if the matter was easy to resolve then we would have resolved it a long time ago....

Give me a call and lets see what we can do....

Tom

MTR

Tom,
Thanks for the reply.

Maybe not, but it doesn't do any harm to remind the supplier, that maybe his customers aren't as happy as he would like to think.
Silent apathy is not the same as silent contentment.

I agree. BUT they DID both originate from standard base spec vehicles which ARE MODIFIED after registration, and insuring by the owners, in the UK.
My whole bone of contention with Subaru/Prodrive is why won't they spend the money/time getting the PPP'd spec Imprezas type approved, and registered with the ABI? Thus eliminating the whole std/modified argument.

No I haven't contacted yourselves yet.
I have always been able to get insurance.
Perhaps having only ever having made one own fault claim in 29 years of driving , (and that was 26 years ago) along with a clean licence might help.
But it is still demoralising when you phone around to be met with such a negative response from SO MANY insurers, re PPP and 'modifications'!!!

The letters, and my resurecting them is due to my annual frustration. Its heading for that time of the year again!!!

Hopefully it will pass, I will recieve a reasonable renewal quotation from my current insurer, and I will carry on in quiet contemplation dreaming of my next new Subaru.
Maybe.

Or I will get a silly quote, vow to sell the car, curse spit and berate the whole system, then grudgingly pay up and shut up. As is usually the case.

If this latter scenario does develop, I will give you and your team a ring, to let you work your magic.

Cheers
MTR

MTR

Here is the response from Mr Peter Kinnaird, Subaru UK Managing Director, for my letter re PPP and insurance on UK cars.
It is only fair that I post Mr Kinnairds response to my letter.
I don't think he will mind me making it public.

************************************************** *******

5th April 2005
Dear Mr ****

Many Thanks for your constructive letter regarding insurance and the attitude of insurers to modified cars and the PPP.

Naturally, I was delighted to note your obvious enthusiasm for your Subaru Impreza Turbo STi and note with some interest your previous purchasing pattern, which might suggest you could be in the market again soon!

Obviously the issue you raise is familiar to us and if the solution were simple I feel sure we would have solved it by now.

In essence, in order to be recognised as a specfic model by the ABI (Association of British Insurers) we have to identify a model designation (and badge accordingly), identify a specification and list the model in our price list.

In the case of the WR1, it being a limited edition to a set specification and despite the after market fit of the PPP, we were able to satisfy the ABI criteria.

With regard to the on-going offer of PPP as an after market dealer fit option it is not possible to designate these as a specific model, given the fact that many customers also wish to specify additional after market changes which may vary from customer to customer.

We do of course, offer our own branded insurance - Subaru Insured- that obviously recognises the PPP option and will quote accordingly.

Nevertheless, I agree that some wider solution via the ABI would be desirable and we are currently looking at some tweaks in the way we market PPP to see if we can get ABI recognition.

Meantine, I know Tom Butler of Subaru Insured has responded to your comments on the website and has indicated he will be happy to provide you with a quote.

Thank you once again for your thoughtful letter.

Yours Sincerely
Peter Kinnaird
MANAGING DIRECTOR

************************************************** *******

I must say it is nice that someone in Peters position, as Sam did before him, took the trouble to respond personally.
It is also interesting to see his comment about the PPP being an aftermarket fit on the WR1, which is what I said on another thread when the WR1 was being launched.

I've no doubt they are both extremely busy people, who can probably do without letters from me, berating the anomolies within the insurance industry.

But if you don't ask, you don't get.

Lets hope he is successful with his approaches to the ABI.

Cheers
MTR

MTR

I have just had a telephone call from Mike Wood at Prodrive in response to the letter I sent to Dave Richards, his boss, regarding the problems associated with trying to insure PPP specced Imprezas.
see here http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=415477

He couldn't go into great detail about what Subaru/Subaru Insured (Tom Butler at Schofields) and Prodrive were doing, except to say that they WILL be liasing with the ABI (Association of British Insurers), and attempting to ease the problems encountered when insuring the PPP specced cars.

I for one don't expect my insurance to fall in cost dramatically, but if I can at least get a selection of companies willing to quote, which currently is not easy, then that would be a start.

To be honest I wasn't expecting Dave to reply, but I felt out of courtesy I should send him a copy of my letter I was sending to Peter Kinnaird, so he was at least aware of my concerns.
He passed it on to Mike Wood to speak to me on his behalf, and as I have met Mike on a couple of occasions previously, it was a pleasantly informative and relaxed conversation, and was very much appreciated.

Thanks Mike, and please thank Dave Richards on my behalf.

I don't suppose for a minute that my letters started anything that wasn't already being looked into, but at least with the responses from Peter Kinnaird, Tom Butler (Schofields Insurance, is this classed as me advertising ) and Mike Wood from Prodrive, which have been posted publically on Scoobynet, we can at least be assured that our concerns are being taken seriously.

Cheers
MTR

MTR

This is a copy of the letter I have recieved from Dave Richards dated
26Th April (it arrived on the 28th April after I spoke to Mike Wood)

Dear ****
Thank you very much for your recent letter concerning insurance issues with your Subaru Impreza.

I understand we have a solution to this problem, and I have forwarded your enquiry to Roland Cherry, who will respond to you very shortly.

Thank you very much for taking the time and trouble to make me aware of this matter.

Yours Sincerely
David Richards
cc Roland Cherry

Cheers
MTR

Jza

Wow !! Good stuff dude - any follow up?

MTR

Jza,
This post isn't the most topical one, as Sam Burton is no longer Subaru UK MD, I posted it for reference to show that I had already wrote to Subaru 12 months ago, as some individuals on another thread were sugesting it might be a good idea.

This is the topical thread.
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=415477

I have had no more info, other than the replies I have posted.
If I get any further clarification, I will post it up.

Cheers
MTR

MikeWood

MTR

Tom has managed to get a new deal sorted where the PPP is loaded by only a small amount and the range of drivers covered is much wider.

Mike

MTR

Mike,
Thanks for the update.

Cheers
MTR

Rum*

MTR,

As Mike has mentioned we have indeed got new rates and the age of drivers/proposers will certainly be much wider (over the next couple of weeks at least ...as the rates for the younger end are presently being retested due to a little glitch in the software)...

As I've said previously comments do not fall on deaf ears...we do listen...and believe it or not all parties (Subaru UK, Prodrive, Subaru Insured...and others) are working hard to resolve a number of issues that you have raised...alas it takes time...but watch this space

Tom

MTR

Tom,
That sounds promising.
If you can update this post, as and when you are able to clarify what you all have been able to achieve, I'm sure the info will be appreciated.

Cheers
MTR

budgie55

yup ... will be very interested to hear here.

Many thanks to MTR, Mike Wood and Tom for taking the time to write in this thread. Looking forward to future info as I have just bought MY05 STi a few months ago and will be looking at PPP at some point.

Allan

GE90

Just for info, Scholfields Ins insists on tracker if you have PPP fitted.

Rum*

In most cases....yes we do....to be honest its more than likely to be the case moving forwards....however we are still in discussions with underwriters and it may be that for WRX it is not a requirement....time will tell

...its obviously not an issue for STI tho is it ...

GE90

Called for a quote this morning, and as soon as they knew it was a WRX with PPP I was told that they would not consider a WRX PPP without tracker.

I think that many of us would appreciate a post here, should this change.

Cheers!

Rum*

Will try to keep you posted this is my own feeling and not the opinion of any other company or individual....but nowadays I would look to fit some form of tracking device to any vehicle I own....the cost of a system over a period of lets say 3 years of car ownership becomes the equivalent of circa 3 tanks of fuel...in the overall scheme of things its not that much of an increase...but as I said thats my opinion

Bullring

Just read the threads. A big thank you to MTR for all his efforts. It now makes adding a PPP (for me anyway) a serious option. I'll be calling Subaru Insure for a quote later this week.

Tom,
As Subaru UK's "authorised/recommended" insurers would it be possible for you advise what additional "weighting" other official Subaru upgrades carry. For example, the Prodrive spring kit, WR back box, 18" wheels etc. We've established that a tracking device required, but are any discounts offered when other security devices are fitted? For example the Dipol security lock?

Regards,

Rich