speed_devil

hi
I have peugeot 106 1.6 16v turbo
my setup is
logtype exhaust manifold
stock cams
TD04 13g turbo from impreza wrx
FMIC
356 injectors
250kpa map sensor
stock 3 plug ecu

I have the following problem

0n 0.75 boost tha car made 200 bhp and 270nm but after 6200 rpm the power curve drops very very fast and it can't hold any power after 7000 rpm
The torque qurve is just the same - it makes peak torque at 3500 rpm and falls down to 170nm at 6000rpm!
Is it the logtype manyfold or it's just the turbo being too small (it's from 2.0 impreza)
also have you got any dyno graph from stock impreza with 13g turbo

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

On the Impreza's 2.0, the TD04's puff diminishes dramatically past 5,500rpm (7,000+ rev limit). So yeah, prob just the size of the turbo in conjunction with the smaller 1600 motor...

prodriverules

iTrader: (52)

+1 John,the td04 has never been known for making power up the rev's just good spool really imho mate.

speed_devil

yes but i tought that on the 1.6 motor it'll hold better power in the higher revs...
So is there any way to pass that ? I mean to use bigger "hot side" of the turbo from other td04 variant or ? please help

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Hi matey TD04 will struggle hold boost after 3.5k RPM(but i've run on mine TD04 1.3 bar and made 275bhp),you can also look for aftermarket ECU(i think for Peugeot is good Megasquirt and Emerald),which can control boost....
Here is mine old dyno lot from JDM WRX 2002(this run has been made n LPG)





Jura

prodriverules

iTrader: (52)

It all depends what your after really and power your hoping to make?
You could try using a different turbo within the range ie one of the ihi vf one's?
Also available is a TD04 hybrid from the likes of RCM or Andy Forrest.

speed_devil

i can't understand how to upload a picture to show you mine on 0.7 boost
it looks worts than yours so i defenately have problem....

jura11

iTrader: (7)

+1 As above Ryan said TD04H from Andy Forrest will be good option and some IHI VF(don't go for Punto GT version VL7,these can make around 160bhp).

Jura

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Hi matey just create Photobucket account and upload pic on Photobucket and after just copy link of picture from Photobucket.



Jura

speed_devil

But from your graph it seems that the car holds power till 6400-6500 rpm and then slightly drops.
My car makes it's max power at 6200 (lower than yours at lower boost 0.7) and than drops like mad

prodriverules

iTrader: (52)

You can't really compare the graph from a 2 litre engine and your's mate.

speed_devil

speed_devil

sorry for the bad quality

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Hi matey try take Print screen from this guide and quality will be better http://www.entity.cc/ICONS/print-screen.php or this http://graphicssoft.about.com/cs/gen...screenshot.htm
After just open MS Paint and paste them and save as jpeg and upload again on Photobucket


Jura

speed_devil

Sorry but can't make it better quality because it's captured with my mobile phone 12012011214.jpg?t=1294959161

saiklon

I think you need to have another look at your boost control. What are you using to control boost? Are you sure your exhaust is not too restrictive?

I think the reason the power is dropping is your boost controller is letting the boost drop after your 3.5krpm peak. A TD04 can hold at least 0.8bar at 6krpm on a 2 litre, it should be able to hold 1 bar at the same RPM on your car.

speed_devil

my exhaust line is 63mm which is enough i think...
i don't have any kind of boost control...it was just a small hole in the actuator pipe i made just for the test. Do you think that the lack of boost control is my problem ? Because it holds 0.7 and than drops to 0.6 in the higher revs

jura11

iTrader: (7)

On std TD04 you can run 1.3bar(mine make on 1.3bar around 275BHP),i would recommend aftermarket ECU or boost controller.




Jura

speed_devil

yes i think i need ecu.....
and thanks alot mate!

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Hi matey you can have look for Apexi AVC-R,which is boost controller and have in gear boost control.
And about ECU Megasquirt or Emerald are cheapest or you can try luck on eBay(i've seen few times Emerald for £400)

And about the boost,TD04 can run 1.3bar.....


Jura

harvey

iTrader: (48)

The TD04 is a good turbo on a 2 litre Subaru but what is good on a 2 litre flat four is completely different to the needs of a Peugot 1.6. In the circumstances your turbo is doing quite well. Unmapped.
First you need a mappable ECU suitable for the Peugot.
Second find out the safe boost limits for your engine internals.
Are you running an EGT guage and how do you control fueling and have you had your fueling checked on wideband lambda?
I don't know for sure what the best ECU for your application will be but you may verify this from one of the many Peugot owners sites that you may well be a member of already. Jura suggested Maga Sqirt and Emerald. Also look at DTA Pro which is very capable around £500. Omex will aslo have something and may even have 1.6 Pug experience. Whatever you get has to have a good boost control strategy to get the best out of the TDo4 with variable boost targets and duty cycle controls across the full boost rev range.
The ECU has to control fuel, ignition and boost and once these have been attended to and only then will you be able to determine the suitability or otherwise of the TD04 which may well have been a reasonable choice. With mapping and being able to map the wastegate duty cycle you will be able to carry more boost higher up the rev range.
On the TD04 there is no point running the turbo more than 1.5 baar dropping to around 1.35 bar top end but best upshift for fastest acceleration is generally before 6K rpm despite the 7 K rpm rev limit. Exceeding these boost figures on a TD04 on a 2 litre Subaru only creates heat for little or no power gain.

If the TD04 is found to be a good choice, bearing it is capable of 280-300 bhp on a 2 litre Subaru then I can do you a TD04 and a half which will give a good bit more on top, particularly mid range and top end, for not a lot of money but on a 1.6 engine this is probably not needed as the TD04 is a relatively big turbo already.

speed_devil

my goal is to "shift" the power and torque curves upper in the rev range and i think my problem is not the size of the turbo because it's holding power quite well on the 2.0 engine. Take a look in the dyno graph Jura send me on 1.3 boost - it seems that even on high pressure the turbo is still holding it's horse power till 7000rpm... So i think my problem is once the current map (i have remapped the stock ecu) and than the logtype manifold that makes the things even worst....
Also i was thinking how to make the car comming into boost softer.... I know people often try to make the turbo spool faster my i want the opposite... My idea is to use a manual boost control that is not of the type with ball and spring. It will be just a "vent" valve that will go pass some of the unwanted pressure going to the actuator. By this way i think the west gate will start opening earlier (not at the last moment like with the ball and spring) and this will lead to going into boost more gently. Please tell me what you think about my idea

harvey

iTrader: (48)

A manual boost controller cannot do what you want but an electronic boost controller can do that if such a facility does not already exist on your ECU. Any turbo car ECU has to control boost, either directly from the ECU or with a stand alone EBC such as APEXI AVC-R that comes with its own three port boost solenoid valve.
The boost is controlled by the position of the wastegate solenoid valve and that is controlled by the duty cycle you input at what revs and in what gear.
You will not be able to reduce the spool below actuator pressure.

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Hi there my dyno graph has been just on 1.0bar(15psi),1.3 bar dyno i have somewhere,but not sure where
As above Harvey say possibly best boost controller is Apexi AVC-R which can control boost by in gear/per gear,some aftermarket ECU can control boost same like AVC-R.
Manual boost controller is waste of money.....

Jura

speed_devil

i think i find where my problem is...today i try to retard my exhaust camshaft and the turbo start to sool a little later and it's holding power better in the rev range now...so i think it's time for some play with the cams on the dyno

saiklon

For the cost of playing with cams on the dyno, you would get proper boost control, which would leave you with the original spool up point with boost coming on as soft or as hard as you want and the ability to hold power in the rev range.

I would think cams are to be considered after most of the other power making mods are done.

speed_devil

I finally find where the problem is! It was the west gate spring too soft causing the boost to fall of in the upper revs...i just tighten it and now the car pulls like mad till 7500 rpm!
thanks everyone here for the great help!

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Do you have a spare engine?
How do you know what the fueling is across the rev range?

speed_devil

I have Aem AFR

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Wideband I hope