scoobyboothy

iTrader: (1)

Now I've got my car back I thought Iwould try my VAG cable on it. I know It works cos I've tried on a mates W plate and a V plate and it reads data fine. But when I connect mine it connects ok it tries reading data but has uknown ecu ID in the bottom left hand corner. Tried learn view and it shows the ecu id but says it's not supported!. I am under the impression that E3 ecus (which mine is) could be read as they are Ecuteks. I have taken off the cover and on the board it says A19-001 DS2 and in a square N. does this match up to being an E3 board or something else? Could have been mapped then locked?

can anybody shed any light on this?

Splitpin

What software are you using?

That impression is not entirely correct. The E3 label just means it is (or started life as) a standard MY99 UK market AE801 ECU. It is EcuTeK compatible and might already have been reflashed, but if you're thinking that the presence of that sticker is itself an indication that it has already been EcuTeKed, then that doesn't follow.

Yes, the A19-001 DS2N number is the PCB code and it's exactly what you'd expect to see in an AE801 can. All MY99 ECUs have that number on the boards - inc the imports.

I'm not sure at this point that your ECU has actually been locked, there might be another explanation for your (so far at least) inability to talk to it, but it's technically possible, yes. I believe EcuTeK have taken some measures to lock out aspects of the newage ECUs diagnostic functionality in order to "protect" the firmware but whether they've done something similar on the JECS platforms I couldn't tell you. TeK mapper should know though.

As above, what software are you using to try and diagnose it? The "unknown ECU type" thing you referred to earlier happens because the diagnostic tool begins by reading a five byte ID code in the ECU firmware, and deduces from that what sort of ECU it is.

From what you're describing, three things seem possible. Either the software you're using doesn't recognise the 0x1644500405 code that should be in your ECU (which is unlikely if you've successfully used it to talk to other MY99/00 cars), or it has been reflashed, and in the process the firmware ID has been changed to something non-standard that your software obviously isn't aware of.

If the ECU ID has been changed during a remap, the chances are that the diagnostics port isn't actually blocked, as such, it's more likely that because the software you're using doesn't recognise the ECU type, it just gives up and spits out the error message rather than carrying on regardless.

For what it's worth I've just tried to do something similar, using ECU Explorer to talk to an ECU that I'd previously given a non-standard ID code to. Although the software doesn't recognise the ECU type (it comes up completely blank), the "live data" page will log it totally normally. As such if you're stuck at a dead end with whatever software you're currently using, try ECUExplorer and see if you get any further.

There is, as above, a third possible explanation for the problem you're having: Some cars seem to inject a lot of interference into the diagnostic data line which can play havoc with the comms integrity. This is probably a moot point but I'll mention it just in case: Have you been trying this, so far, with the engine on or off? If you've only tried it with the engine running, try to connect with the ignition on but engine off, and see what happens.

If you know the ECU has been EcuTeK mapped, one option might be to speak to the mapper (or another TeK agent) as they will know much more than me if any standard functionality has actually been locked out or altered.

scoobyboothy

iTrader: (1)

thanks for the in depth reply. I have been using romraider which worked on the other cars. I haven't tried it yet with the engine off so that will be next, i did try ecu explorer briefly, it sort of worked, can't remember what i did exactly, it wasn't reading data, but i tried reading something, it asked me to save, but gave me an error about kernels and things! I'll do a bit more investigating when i get home and let u know how i get on.

scoobyboothy

iTrader: (1)

well I think it may have been user error, cos it seem s to be working now

i have done a quick log on a short brisk drive

mass air flow voltage highest around 3v lowest around 1.3v
wastegate duty cycle got to 90%
and O2 sensor averged around .56% then settled at .6% idling just after the run.

does sound about right? what else would be useful to log

it still says unknown ecu id

scoobyboothy

iTrader: (1)

bump

Splitpin

Weird that it didn't work the other night but does now. Doesn't sound like user error when you've used the software successfully before. When you say it's giving you an unknown ID, does it actually tell you what the hex code is?

As far as those numbers are concerned, you generally don't learn a lot just from looking at min/max values, the real strength of datalogging is looking at the way the figures alter as the car's actually being driven.

In addition, as I don't use RomRaider myself I have no idea how they're calculating that O2 sensor number. Under normal circumstances you'd expect the oxygen sensor input to be displayed as a voltage rather than a "percentage". You shouldn't, in practice, see it settling at an "average" either.

Once the engine's hot, during low speed cruise it should bounce constantly around the 0.68 volt stoich level, and then run up to around 0.88-0.9 volts (and stick there) when you're on full boost. If the software has the option to display this parameter as a straight voltage I would select it.

The one number you've quoted that does look a little out of place is that 3v maximum MAF voltage. When you say you went for a "brisk" drive, did you actually drive it hard/under boost at any point? If so that voltage appears far lower than one would normally expect (hard acceleration, on even a standard car, should get it over 4 volts, and given the relationship between airflow and voltage is non-linear, this represents a huge difference in calculated flow).

As I said above you learn a lot more from a datalog actually looking at the numbers than you do from simply looking at the min/max at the bottom of the file. If I were you (and assuming you've actually saved it to a file) I would look for a point on your log where the throttle position and boost pressures show you accelerating flat out.

Once it has settled at its boost target, as revs continue to rise you should see smooth incremental rises in mass airflow voltage, consistent increases in injector duty cycle, and the O2 sensor consistently reading at about its highest level. If you see any of those dropping out, and suddenly coming back, or you see the O2 sensor not reading high once on boost, I would suspect an underread.

In addition, are you logging knock correction? If so, how many (if any) degrees are you seeing?

scoobyboothy

iTrader: (1)

the ECU id is displayed but just doesn't recognise it. I did a serch with number on google and actually comes up as a MY99/00 A800 ecu.

the O2 reading was volts not % (my mistake). Did another log driving to work and this went down to around .25v on steady cruise (50mphish), the maf voltage was as b4, with some spikes really low, consistant with gear change while accelerating up to speed, could the cone filter and HKS BOV contribute to this?

no knock adjustment was detected at all on the 20min drive.

when i do some logging again would it be a good idea to log speed aswell as throttle positon.

Splitpin

What's the code? 1644500305 is the firmware ID for an AE800.

That sounds a bit weird. I guess it's possible that your software may be averaging it over time or something but you should, if you're watching it closely on low throttle cruise, see it bouncing around the 0.68-0.78 volt area, dropping down to very little, and then coming back up to around the same number again and again every few seconds.

Both potentially alter the airflow voltage in different ways yes. Has the car been mapped with those two in place?

Road speed's always handy to know. The one thing that sounds a bit odd about what you've said so far is hearing that the O2 sensor is being displayed/logged as a voltage. Under these circumstances you should see it running up to (assuming a mapped car) at least 0.8 volts consistently under booste, and, as above, oscillating around the stoich point on cruise/idle.

If you're not seeing that sort of voltage it could be a sign either of the oxygen sensor itself failing, or of problems in the MAF area (or lack of mapping).

scoobyboothy

iTrader: (1)

have done a bit more logging as i have some hesitation problems when accelerating, and noticed something odd in the Igniton total timing, every now and again it drops down to 0 or near as dam it! sould it do this? it's not registering any knock correction advance

scoobyboothy

iTrader: (1)

bump

ZEN Performance

It's not supposed to register any knock correction advance if the multiplier is at 16, it's not the same as a newage ECU at all. You're best bet is to get it to someone that knows what they're looking at.

scoobyboothy

iTrader: (1)

thanks. IAM is something that is not in the loggerable options. Is there any other way of being able to find out what it is? The ae800 is not supported by learn view.

ZEN Performance

Use Deltadash, or even EVOscan might work with a compatible cable these days. What exactly are you trying to diagnose with it?

Splitpin

There are some areas of the main ignition map where you could, legitimately, see zero advance - although you would need to be pulling an engine load in excess of 27 at less than 1000rpm. In practice this is very difficult to achieve, although it's something you should look for in your logs.

However, these moments where you are seeing zero degrees advance. Do you see them when your throttle has been at idle for a short period of time and you have only just (gently) reapplied it? If so you're seeing the effect of a timer within the ECU that, on gentle reapplication of throttle from trail, zeroes the applied timing and then incrementally advances the timing to the map-derived value over a short period of time (about half a second).

If, as above, you're seeing this on reapplication of throttle after a period of idling/trailing, then it's normal. If you're suddenly seeing the timing drop to zero during a period of hard acceleration, then that's definitely not normal.

I don't know enough about any other software packages to comment but you can look at IAM with DeltaDash (which isn't free) and ECUExplorer (which is). On an AE800 ECU you need to monitor memory offset 802244 with the latter. As Paul says it should be 16 under normal circumstances.

That's not quite correct Paul. You can see KC reported on the JECS ECUs while IAM = 16. If you see relatively small amounts the ECU will simply make ongoing changes to its learned fine ignition correction map - but keeping the IAM at 16. If you get more activity than the fine correction system can handle, it will then reduce the advance multiplier.

ZEN Performance

Okay I'll be more precise smarty pants.

If the ignition multiplier is 16, you will not see any positive knock correction, it will only ever be zero or a negative number. You will only see positive correction if the mulitplier drops below 16, and then the correction will not be more than the IAM/16*value in ignition correction map.

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Does the "I" in IAM stand for "Ignition", or "Initial"?

scoobyboothy

iTrader: (1)

It stands for "Ignition Advanced Multiplyer"

I can see the drop after a period of constant throttle, but it also does it on acceleration, not neccessarly hard acceleration either, would this be felt as hesitation? could coil pack, leads or plugs contributed to this?

Splitpin

As boothy says, ignition advance (no "d") multiplier. On classic ECUs it defaults to 8 after an ECU reset, if the running conditions allow, will quickly climb to 16, unless, as above, there's enough knock detection to result in it being pulled back down. It's used to decide how much of the value looked up in the additional advance map is added to the base timing.

Can you post up a log excerpt showing exactly what you mean? If you're accelerating on a constant throttle opening (i.e your right foot holds still), and you suddenly see the ignition timing drop to zero, before coming back up to around where it was, then no, that isn't normal. If, as above, you're accelerating, lifting the throttle significantly, and then reapplying it, then you would expect to see, over about half a second, the timing first dropping to zero and then climbing back up to its "proper" value.

Look carefully at your throttle opening angle (or throttle sensor voltage) readings and see if you can cross-reference a throttle lift and gentle reapplication with those timing pulls. If you are seeing the timing drop to zero under steady acceleration, there are a couple of potential explanations. As above it'd help to actually see what you're talking about.

Degrading coils or leads in particular could cause noticeable hesitation or reluctance to accelerate, but none of this would be clearly visible in your logs. So, if you're asking whether a dodgy coil, lead or plug could actually cause those zero timing readings you're seeing, then no, they won't.

Edit: boothy, if you can't log IAM with the package you're using at the moment, get ECUExplorer and, as above, tell us what the value at 802244 currently is.

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

I only asked, as I saw someone post "initial", and thought, therefore, I was wrong to think it was "ignition".

So I was actually right to think it was ignition - it was the other geez that was talking ****e.

ZEN Performance

It's quite correct.

scoobyboothy

iTrader: (1)

i'll try and cut a section and paste it as jpeg.

watch this space

Splitpin

Blimey, just as well I'm not holding my breath.

scoobyboothy

iTrader: (1)

not got round to it yet lol

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

in the map you can set the initial advance multiplier whcih is the value it will got to after a reset etc and it is easy to type what you are used to seeing in the map etc when your head says ignition etc.. lol

Simon

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Oh right. So in the case of a factory-fresh Classic JECS ECU, the INITIAL advanced multiplier is "8"? But you're saying that, in a remap, it can be altered to any value between 0 and 16 as the 'starting point'?

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

only on 01 onwards not the classic if my memory is correct

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Gotcha.

Are the New Age ECUs Denso? They have 0 to 8 - or is it 0 to 32 - don't they?

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

Correct, the Bugeye's heralded the start of the DENSO ECU's with a Max IAM of 16....

Shaun

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Normally I would agree with you Paul as this is (i believe) how they intend it to work but I have logged on my car instances of when IAM was at the max and yet there was still a positive fine learning advance. Very weird but then my car always does some strange stuff.

Knock correction though is a bit of a misnomer for the item that is generally logged. Obviously not for paul or splitpin, this generally displays the advance less knock corrections (and other corrections). So if the advance timing was 10 degrees and there was 6 degrees of fine learning or feedback correction then it would display 4

Splitpin

You can alter the default IAM on 99/00 Simon, step value and raise/lower triggers too.

Duncan, think Paul and myself were pretty much on the same page, but had taken different meanings from Boothy's post and were approaching it from opposing understandings of advance and retard (i.e. the effect of positive and negative KC values on the final ignition timing). .

He's right about the ignition learning being different on a JECS to how it is on a newage so your own experience may not transfer across. In practice though I've seen both positive and negative numbers in the fine learning map on an IAM of 16, but, theoretically, a classic shouldn't add any more timing over and above the values in the additional advance map once the multiplier maxes out. As you suggest I suspect there are a few unintentional differences here and there between what Subaru intended, and what they actually ended up putting in the cars.