_KENDO_

First of all tell you about the car's engine.

MY99 UK turbo saloon.
Area 52 rebuild with STi bottom end and STi pistons.
ACL Big and Main end bearings
Welbro Fuel Pump
Front Mounted Intercooler
Full TSL exhaust with removed cat.
TD05 16g Turbo running at 1.5bar.
Standard ECU with Ecutek remap (map done by TSL motorsport)
TSL estimate running approx 330bhp?

Resent work done, had oil leek so took up to AWD motorsport in Perth and they fitted the following,
new front crank seal,
new timing belt,
new tensioner,
New rocker cover gasket set for each side
new crank pulley.
Also new Blitz turbo timer.

Car seemed to be running fine and out of blue without any warning or any shard driving has developed a fault, So Need Help!

Drove to work today and all was fine, pottered along fine didn't kill the boost or any mad driving just drove calmly to work which is roughly 6miles away from my house. Got to work and the turbo timer ran down for 10 secs and it switched off. Just finished work at 9pm there switched on the car drove out the car park of my work.

I noticed my engine check light was on, strait away the car felt little jerky but presumed because it was cold. Coasted down the road and the Check Engine light went out, strange I thought? Tried to drive my car normally and it had no boost whatsoever, it wouldn't go over 0.4 on the Defi Gauge? Couple of more times I tried to accelerate and it wouldn't go above 0.4 and felt jerky. So I just built my speed gradually to limp to closest petrol station with light to look under bonnet.

My Defi oil pressure gauge was reading just over 6.0 when driving, so oil looked fine, my air fuel ratio gauge was reading in optimum so that looked fine, air flow temperature sensor which is hooked to FMIC was around 12 degrees and in the blue not the amber or red and sitting roughly normally where it sits. There was no coloured smoke when driving or any puffs on start up that i noticed. There's no clunking, clicking or loud rattling noises everything sounds the same.

When I looked under bonnet I tried to see if any hoses had fell off or if any where damaged or split and from what I could see everything seems exactly how it should but il be honest in saying I am not no Subaru expert and light was limited! plenty of Oil in her and cooling and heating hoses also attached, no leaks from what I could see so I am really not sure whats up. While I was at the petrol station I put in £20 of tesco 99 as I usually do but this time when I started the car the Check Engine light came on and stayed on permenant? Plus it may just be me noticing for first time but Im pretty sure car used to idle rather solid at same revs and now its seems to float around a little bit?

Like I have described, Car seems to drive ok with gradual acceleration, but there seems to be no boost and its jerky if you try to accelerate properly? Is this a safe/limp mode that he ECU has put the car in for time being? Do I have something seriously wrong with, turbo/engine that I am not picking up on?

I don't want to keep stop starting the car so have just parked her up to avoid any damage I may be causing but may have to use the car to get to work tomorrow!

I have tried to be as informative as I possibly can be and because of the time of night it is, I really don't have anyone I am able to ring or call just now about these issues, so all help is really appreciated!

Splitpin

Probably is limp mode, which is usually brought on by one of the key engine sensors dropping out. As a possible aside, what induction kit do you have fitted, and was it present when the car was mapped by TSL?

First diagnostic step is to find out what error(s) the ECU has stored so connect the black plugs under the dash, ignition on and count the flash sequence on the CEL. Long flashes are tens and short flashes are 1's so two long flashes and three short = 23 (etc.). It can store more than one error so make sure you keep watching and making note until you see the same numbers repeating.

Some of the obvious/common ones are 21: Coolant temp sensor, 22: Knock sensor, 23:Mass airflow sensor, 24: Idle speed control valve, 31: Throttle pos sensor, 32: O2 sensor, 44: Boost control solenoid, 45:MAP sensor or pressure source change solenoid.

From what you've said it doesn't sound like a serious mechanical problem with the engine itself but obviously there's only one way to be certain.

I'd throw the turbo timer in the bin btw but that won't be related to this problem. If I had a quid for every sucker who bought one of those I wouldn't have to play the lottery. In fact I think I'm going to invent a useless gadget now. Anyone want to buy an oil molecular aligner?

_KENDO_

Yep forgot to mention the filter, Its a large Pipercross induction that looks similar to this and I do believe it was on the car when the map was done



Yeah, I am very dubious as to if there worth it or not but I am one of those dudes who's managed to cook 2 turbos in the past, 1 on a series an RS turbo and other on a Saph cosworth, so put them on just incase, plus wether we like em or not, they do help with resale!

Fingers crossed its nothing serious! I will do this first thing tomorrow and see what codes I get then I will update the thread with what I find! Thanks for the advise!

Splitpin

Mmmhmmm. Do you know how it's secured within the engine bay? Is it mounted to the wing or flitch panel, and if so, is it isolated via rubbers/bushes etc? Similarly is it isolated from engine vibration by the OE soft link pipe, or has that been replaced by a metal thing?

You'd have a **** of a job doing that on an Impreza. Watercooled turbo makes it next to impossible. From an engine care/cooling pov you're better off driving steadily for a couple of miles to allow airflow to circulate through the rad and engine bay than leaving it idle at a standstill on a timer.

Given what you've said so far, MAF (error code 23) wouldn't be remotely surprising. If so ignore anyone who suggests cleaning it, or silly tests that involve disconnecting the sensor with the engine running (the only thing that proves is your ability to blindly follow stuff you read on the web!) and order a new sensor.

_KENDO_

Its not mounted to wing but it does retain the original OE large diameter inlet pipe and its solid doesnt move aout without really trying to force it around.


Presuming it is a sensor that's chucked it, I wouldn't mess about trying to clean it and put it back in as its went faulty once chances are they will do again. Also not sure about used ones that have been exposed to the elements and that have been running on different cars with different MAPS and characteristics. Where is a good place to get descent/uprated sensors or are you as well getting OE ones?

Thanks again!

Splitpin

Had a feeling you might say something like that. If it's bolted down solid I would try to find a way of insulating it from vibration coming through the chassis. The standard airbox is mounted quite loosely on rubber grommets - if you can try to do the same thing it'll hopefully save you a repeat of this in future.

Exactly the right attitude in this case. If (as it sounds like) you have a mass airflow sensor failure they normally fail internally and thus "cleaning" doesn't and can't make any difference.

The genuine Subaru ones are as good as you can get. If you do get error code 23 off the black plugs thing, either order part 22794AA010 from your nearest main stealer or, have a look on www.importcarparts.co.uk and see how their current price for the genuine one compares with what the dealer tells you.

If you get another error, or a couple of different ones, let us know.

_KENDO_

I am on it bud, will look at how I can make it less rigid and find rubbers or bushes so that its not getting slammed about either as my car runs tein coily's so wouldn't imagine its the smoothest!

Cant seem to find the black plugs you talk about, what side of the dash are the on under drivers or passengers footwell? Can you suggest any writeups/links as to what they look like?

If it does require a MAF Any pictures/links/writeups of where the MAF sits and can you visibly read the part numbers whist its attached. Just to make sure its the same part as one I have on? Also If I fit this will the ECU learn the part has been changed and take my car out of limp/safe mode, or will I need the ECU reset by a garage somewhere?

Thanks!

Splitpin

Aye, it'll likely be getting a lot of vibration of all sorts of frequencies, which is pretty much the most destructive thing you can do to the airflow sensor.

They're under the driver's footwell and are part of the loom running to/from the interior fuse box. If they've never been used before they're often taped up to the main trunk of the loom. If you sit on the floor with the car door open and crane your neck up under the cowl you should see them (and a pair of green plugs) either hanging or taped round the loom.

It'll be immediately after your induction kit. If you still have the standard MAF tube it'll be held in by five security Torx screws - two larger, three smaller, with a large grey electrical plug connected to it. Part numbers are a moot point - have already given you the number for the replacement and the same part is used on all 99/00 cars so getting the right one won't be a problem.

It will eventually learn but it can take a while to properly sort itself out. Best thing is to reset it, but you can do it yourself, no garage involved, either by disconnecting the battery for a few hours or by using the black plugs *and* the green plugs under the dash.

P600wrx

iTrader: (1)

Anyone want to buy an oil molecular aligner



lol is that like a magnetic sump plug lol

P600wrx

iTrader: (1)

Anyone want to buy an oil molecular aligner



lol is that like a magnetic sump plug lol

_KENDO_

Trying to get these codes the now so can put my mind at ease of whats actually wrong, But Im Raging now man!! My torch has packed In

so I am now basically trying to find these plugs with the light from my mobile, not ideal I can tell you..plus bit late to start knocking on neighbors doors to see if they have one!

Will persevere and find a way, if not happening due to limited light, will try first thing the morra morning as im starting to get frustrated and thats the worst state of mind to be in when looking at cars as I can be as impatient as they come and have a temper that makes Russel Crowe look cute!! haha

_KENDO_

Well after going spare on trying to find these unconnected plugs underneath the dash with only the light from my N95, I finally found them!

Previous owner/someone? had took all the connectors and cable tied all of them together right at the bottom of the wires just above the plugs so that you weren't able to move the connectors apart to push them in together? Plus had another cable tie on them well over to the right behind other connectors tucked right away!? Not sure why someone had done this as after I cut the ties off they didn't exactly hang way past the dash? Almost like they were put there so nobody could find them!?

Defo had someones touch as the cable ties were different coloured and different sized, either way explains why I couldn't see them, if it wasn't for a slight glimpse of green id have never seen them! Either way connected them up to see what code/s I got and right enough 2 long flashes followed by 3 short..23 (MAF)! Waited to go round three times and it was the only code that was coming out so was pleased with that at least!

So will call my nearest stealers with that part number you gave me and find out the damage! Thanks Very Much for the help Splitpin!



Only question I have remaining is about the part you've asked me to get this one hear 22794AA010



I couldn't see well in the dark but seen something that resembled this part immediately after my induction kit



I presume it fits as an insert slotted in and held with screws in to the cylinder leaving the connector showing for the plug to fit in? Cant quite remember as I was only looking around quickly but Mines seems to have theses torx bit style heads on the screws and there seems to be 6 (or more) if i remember, Is this correct?

Splitpin

Cool, nice simple fix then.

Yep, if you have an MY99 or MY2000 car, that's definitely the correct part.

That pic there is of one of the older style assemblies but yours should look very similar, yes. Same round tube but the connector on the back should be a lot smaller and sleeker.

Yes that's about right. As above the sensor fits as an insert into the back of the tube. There should be five S-Torx screws, three countersunk ones holding a metal bracket to the MAF tube, and then two larger button head screws holding the sensor to the bracket.

Put a *very* fine smear of fairy liquid round the sealing o-ring on the new sensor as you turn it into place, will make getting it in a lot easier. Other than that, fitting's just like removal in reverse. Once it's in and connected, reset your ECU using the green and black plugs (search the forum for the exact procedure) and then as soon as you get the all-clear, you should be good to go.

Worth trying to isolate that cone filter ASAP though.

jasonius

iTrader: (1)

Well done SP, on the nose as usual ..

Always nice to see you helping out the less experienced amongst us with your very accurate advice..

BTW that molecular oil aligner sounds useful, so can you put me down for one. Can I suggest you shorten it to MOA as it sounds more catchy and looks better on my mods list..

_KENDO_

Went to Subaru stealers in Ayr this morning and got the part for £105.11 inc Vat with a 1yr warranty on the part should it fail (that was the trade price, all the Subaru stealers I rang were same price but these guys were closest ones to have one in stock).

Car running Fine now and it seems to fuel better! its gone an extra notch up on the Air Fuel Ratio gauge, so will keep an eye on this if it drops a notch in future may indicate MAF sensor again.

_KENDO_

AGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Jumped in to car today Drove like miss daisy down to Lidl killed the engine. I waited in car park for my brother to come out with cheap beer. Started engine then phone rang so stayed parked and took call. As I was just saying see you later on phone car's revs started hunting and going up and down on idle. Strange i thought tapped the accelerator but kept doing it, drove out car park and Check Engine Light came on and stuck car in to safe mode. I was like, hmmmm what now. Soon as home, I connected the 2 black connectors to see what code came out.

to my absaloute rage code 23!!!! MAF!!!

As you can see from the above threads, I have just purchased and replaced this part with a new one from the stealers just over a month ago!!!! so you can see why im annoyed in fact completely raging about it!

I tried to reset my ECU with the green plugs connected but it just flashed 23 at me. Am I doing something wrong? Surely a month out of a MAF is rather strange? Seriously considering getting rid of the car when this is sorted!

Any Ideas folks?

Thanks, unhappy Kendo

Splitpin

Yep. Either you have been very unlucky and got a meter on the low end of the mean time before failure, or this might be something to do with it:



Can only refer you back to our earlier discussion about induction kits, MY99-00 airflow meters and vibration damage.

If you weren't running an FMIC the solution would be obvious. As you are, without actually seeing or logging the car it's difficult to comment in detail, but I can only reiterate the need for the MAF tube to be effectively isolated from both engine and chassis-derived vibration.

Does your cone filter have an oil or "mucus" applied to it as a liquid filter medium, btw?

_KENDO_

I will ring Subaru tomorrow when open and try get another one under warranty.

Its a oil thats applied to the induction kit.

Can see why so many people go the aftermarket ecu route as its a total pain constantly replacing this part. Your right about intercooler, otherwise id be bining the induction kit and fiting it back to the airbox! I have made sure the induction kit isnt bolted absaloutly solid, but my car does run coilovers, so it is stiff but wouldnt say accessively bangy or that.

As you can imagine am so annoyed, so thanks for the reply Splitpin appreciate it man!

Splitpin

This may well, depending on how much oil is on it, be a big part of your problem. Synthetic foam filters have a major problem in that they don't absorb and retain the oil in the way cotton mediums do. As a consequence the effect of the airflow continually passing through the filter in one direction has the effect of drawing the fluid through the filter and into the induction tract.

The MY99-00 MAF has a very small and delicate measurement film and it takes very little in terms of contamination to damage it, or shield it sufficiently from the airflow to degrade the accuracy of its readings. However, in your case, it sounds (from the presence of the CEL) that yours is either a victim of vibration damage, or you simply got a bad one. Either way you should be covered by the warranty on it so at least that's the silver lining.

If it's any comfort, the fact that it expired and threw a CEL is the least worst way for these things to fail. They tend to simply under-read and make the engine run lean without chucking an error, so the first thing you notice is when your engine gets fed up of running lean and decides to melt.

The bottom line here is that you might simply have got unlucky and got a bad sensor. In general the MAF situation is more than manageable provided you have a sensible induction arrangement. It unfortunately sounds in your case that the induction kit is a poor match for the engine/sensor configuration, whether in terms of its oiled foam construction, incorrect physical mounting, or both.

If I were in your shoes I would look at replacing it with a cone that is known to be MAF-friendly - although I might first be asking whether I'd be better off with a newage STi topmount IC, and the standard airbox, induction tract and panel filter. Without knowing what sort of intercooler you have at the moment, I would hazard a guess that this solution, at the power level you're running, would present a small improvement in terms of driveability, and of course, reliability without costing you anything power-wise, although you'd have to shell out for the bits and a map update.

When you say it isn't bolted "solid", do you mean that the unit would otherwise be fixed directly to the chassis? The standard airbox is isolated by three rubber bushes - so you can crank the bolts down as hard as you want, but there's still an engineered level of isolation. That's what you need to emulate.

_KENDO_

Totally, its the one blessing I have with this problem. Fingers crossed claiming the replacement part under warranty will be strait forward.

There is flex enough for you to move it about with hand, but it doesn't just flop about in the engine bay, best way to describe it.

Its not caked in oil and looks rather clean (compared to majority of Ind kits I see on cars.)

Cant see what make the FMIC is, but I recon its half descent as its larger than the FMIC I usually see on classics and has a really thick core and thick up pipes compared to a lot Ive seen. Would love to ditch the Induction kit replace with box and top mount cooler, just really don't have the money just now to replace all these parts and have car re mapped. So think I may look in to a MAF friendly ind kit and see whats available although im not rulling out switching to Top mount idea.

Its a shame as when the car is fine its really great to drive and engine wise, its one of the strongest and quickest Ive ever driven at this power level. Again fingers crossed that it was just a faulty part and when I fit new one it will last many miles and years!

Again thanks for all your help Splitpin. Need some serious thoughts to what I am going to do.

_KENDO_

Well its been a month or so, but yet again my car popped another genuine Subaru MAF sensor. I got a third genuine one from Subaru and fitted it although this time the Check Engine light stayed on and the ECU reset (Green Plugs together) just flashes the code 23 at me like if I plugged the blacks together. I am literally baffled to whats causing this issue and its clearly more than just my Induction kit killing these MAF's.

As you can see I am just not having any luck with this car and I am literally starting to think the only thing that would really cure my ill car is some Euthanasia.

The only suggestion ive been given is that perhaps the wiring in the harness plug to the MAF may be be done and need replaced or re wired?

Another thing thats frustrating is the 16 pic ECU plug wont work with any diagnostic machines? From cheap hand held to expensive laptop system style ones they haven't manage to read it. Although I haven't ever tried a Subaru diagnostic on it.

Any help Guys! Thanks

war1974

although its not what you want to hear i have a my99 and was told to stay clear of induction kits for it as the maf is notoriously brittle! i would look at going back to top mount and airbox.
just wondering as i dont know but my car is a similar spec and i was advised to fit a fuel pressure reg dont know if this would make it run lumpy etc but no doubt someone on here will know!

_KENDO_

Yeah, if it wasn't for the obvious cost of a Re-Map, newage top mount, front bumper, id have taken great pleasure in binning the induction kit donkeys ago, never been a fan of them, on any car!!

Just left with this problem, put 2 different brand new Subaru MAF sensors on the car and its still telling me through the flash codes that the MAF needs replaced??????

All the wiring to the plug looks spot on and isn't damaged or hasn't been tampered with, the plug that plugs into the sensor isn't dirty and doesn't have bent or damaged pins. Im really struggling?????

Anyone any Ideas??

Splitpin

Without examining it at first hand it's impossible to comment with authority, but as said in the past you are running an oiled synthetic foam induction kit. That is just about the worst sort you could pick. However, if you're saying that the CEL is still on even when you fit a brand new sensor, that suggests the problem is elsewhere.

It should be well known by now that while these cars have the 16 pin DLC connector, they do not speak any form of generic OBD/OBD2/EOBD at all. As such, the only diagnostic instrumentation that will speak to them is a Select Monitor, or something else that knows the select monitor 2 comms protocol.

So you are saying that, even with a brand new sensor, the ECU reset (green + black plugs) procedure still gives you #23?

If so there are only a small number of explanations. If you rule these out one by one you will get to the reason for the problem.

1. Both the new sensors you have tried are knackered (unlikely, but theoretically possible)

2. There is a short or open circuit in the MAF loom, either signal, ground, or power supply. You can check for electrical continuity to rule any issues here in or out. Got a multimeter? You'll find ECU and sensor pinout diagrams in Slipstream_UK's manuals thread.

3. There is a fault in your ECUs analog signal processing or analog to digital converter (Unlikely, but you could check by swapping in another ECU).

Start a diagnostic process. The sooner you can rule some explanations out, the quicker you'll find out what is going on.

willwillard

Hey guys,

I am having sort of the same problem with my R reg 1998 uk turbo 2000, it is only boosting up to 0.5 bar and no kick what so ever i had my mate look at it who knows alot about them, and he found a pipe that had callapsed and a bit blocked up so he gave it a quick squirt with some cleaner and he replaced a pipe with blue hosing and it worked for the whole 5 mins on the way home then gave up again by going back to 0.5 bar

How long are the flashes on the CEL when you mention LONG FLASHES?

When i plugged the black plugs in and turned it on, the CEL to me was flashing at the same rate all the time.

Any ideas?

Thanks WILL

Splitpin

Welcome (or should that be Willcome) to the forum. And kudos for clearly having a bit of a search and browse prior to posting.

The "long" error check flashes last 1.2 seconds. The short ones 0.4 of a second. If you are getting a regular on/off equal duration sequence when you connect the black plugs, that is the "okay", no problems stored response. So, the ECU, at least, doesn't think there's anything wrong.

As such, if you are getting no (or little) boost, the cause is some sort of physical issue in the turbo or boost control system, rather than the ECU actually restricting it in response to an error condition.

Can you tell us (or post up a picture) of exactly which pipes were collapsed/blocked, and which one(s) your mate replaced? It's likely that he was investigating in roughly the correct area, but may not have pinged the cause, and may inadvertently have made things worse by replacing the stiff Subaru boost control hose with the blue (presumably) silicone stuff.

If you haven't already seen it, would strongly recommend you have a look at HpoolSteve's thread here. The symptoms are similar and some of the suggestions made there - in particular checking and cleaning the boost control pipework and solenoid, may be relevant to your situation.

willwillard

Cheers for the reply,

I will take a pic of the pipe he changed, it was the T section near the Turbo, where 1 pipe goes to the Acuator and 1 to the Boost Solinoid.

I can feel the pill in the pipe he changed for me still, which is good if that is there.

I had a play at lunch time and connected the black plugs and it was showing the okay signal. I then unplugged the black plug and connected the green one only and turned it on and waited for a couple of mins for it to do its stuff then turned it off and unplugged it, turned the engine on and drove up and down the road for a while and it seems to be boosting ok at the moment well.... just under 1 bar, it used to go all the way to 1 bar and flash red but its not making it at the moment.

Im just going out now for a bit but will be back later ill keep you posted on the outcome lol

Cheers WILL

willwillard

Hey guys,

I took the car out last night as i said in the last message, and the boost is still going ok at the moment fingers crossed.

I will take those pics for you asap Splitpin of the pipe work my mate changed.

I printed off some info on here about why im getting 0.5 bar of boost and no more, and the fault codes and how to reset the ecu and stuff in my lunch break. I had a play last night when i got home from work in the light. It said to have a feel in the pipe between the turbo and the T piece for the restrictor pill, which i did find quite easy so all good there. It also says that 0.5 bar is the actuator spring pressure, i either have the pill missing or the boost solinoid is broke. Further down the paper it said if all is present then it points to boost solinoid. Then connect green plugs only together and you should here the solinoid clicking, which i did and it was clicking, then take off the inlet pipe (im guessing the pipe to the solinoid) and try blowing down it, if it stops you blowing while it is clicking then it should be ok. I did that and i could not blow at all so all good again. He said he had the same problem but his pill was missing and the boost solinoid was sticking. He replaced it with a 3 port boost solinoid then had it mapped to suit, never had a problem since.

Well its still working at the moment, I will just wait to see if it does it again, if it does then i will take it to my mate again or even a Subaru garage.

willwillard

How do you put pics on here please

willwillard

right here is the pic of that pipe my mate changed. Hope it makes sence.






Any reason why i can only put 3 pics up in my album

Cheers WILL