Economy after tuning
24 March 2010, 08:11 PM
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Economy after tuning
Hi Guys
I'm about to do a few upgrades to my '56 2.5 WRX Hawkeye. It's completely standard now with 40K on the clock. I would say I drive 50% calm and 50% 'hard'. I've had the car a few months now and it's returning 24-26 mpg on every tank of (standard unleaded) petrol, which considering the fun I have, I think is good.
I'm going to get an Afterburner Vortex cat back system + filter + re-map. I'd like to know how this will change my economy? I've read conflicting information. I'm sure somebody here will know! Whilst on the subject, can anybody explain the difference in power gains between an induction kit and panel filter please?
Thanks
Jack
I'm about to do a few upgrades to my '56 2.5 WRX Hawkeye. It's completely standard now with 40K on the clock. I would say I drive 50% calm and 50% 'hard'. I've had the car a few months now and it's returning 24-26 mpg on every tank of (standard unleaded) petrol, which considering the fun I have, I think is good.
I'm going to get an Afterburner Vortex cat back system + filter + re-map. I'd like to know how this will change my economy? I've read conflicting information. I'm sure somebody here will know! Whilst on the subject, can anybody explain the difference in power gains between an induction kit and panel filter please?
Thanks
Jack
24 March 2010, 08:21 PM
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My 06 STI was running a PPP map until recently, but it had been causing major ovefuelling issues amongst other things, so a couple of weekends back when I ran into Duncan from RaceDynamix @ a rolling road day he kindly agreed to apply a "safety map" to my STI which would basically map out the bad timing and overfuelling but leave me with an otherwise standardish sort of map.
Since Duncan did this for me I have definatly noticed that fuel consumption has gone up slightly, I was getting around 250-260 from a tank of petrol, but I'm now closer to 280-290.
I'm actually meeting Duncan again on Friday for a proper mapping session to err "boost" the performance shall we say. Anything around the 340bhp mark would give me a big smile
Also just one quick note you said your running standard unleaded petrol ?? By that do you mean 95 ron ?? If so you really need to think about changing that for the super unleader stuff - car will perform much better on super and your milage will probably increase as well. Besides which if your having it remapped you'll need to move over to super anyway.
Finally the filter/induction kit comment. Simple answer - you don't need an induction kit at your stage of tuning. £35 cosworth panel filter or similar will get you near identical results without the heatsoak and bogging down under the engine.
Since Duncan did this for me I have definatly noticed that fuel consumption has gone up slightly, I was getting around 250-260 from a tank of petrol, but I'm now closer to 280-290.
I'm actually meeting Duncan again on Friday for a proper mapping session to err "boost" the performance shall we say. Anything around the 340bhp mark would give me a big smile
Also just one quick note you said your running standard unleaded petrol ?? By that do you mean 95 ron ?? If so you really need to think about changing that for the super unleader stuff - car will perform much better on super and your milage will probably increase as well. Besides which if your having it remapped you'll need to move over to super anyway.
Finally the filter/induction kit comment. Simple answer - you don't need an induction kit at your stage of tuning. £35 cosworth panel filter or similar will get you near identical results without the heatsoak and bogging down under the engine.
Last edited by STI Mav; 24 March 2010 at 08:23 PM.
24 March 2010, 08:23 PM
#3
1st thing i am going to say is please dont tell me "standard" fuel as in 95 ron?! on a non tuned turbo car this can cause detonation. basically means the fuel burns before it reachs the piston. very bad for any engine. on the plus side remapping cars usually has a small gain on fuel consumption (unless your giving it the beans!)
24 March 2010, 08:27 PM
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24 March 2010, 08:32 PM
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24 March 2010, 08:32 PM
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Just checked the sticker on the inside of the fuel filler flap.... it says 95 RON. I can understand that it will run better on higher octane stuff, but surely 95 RON won't cause problems if Subaru whack a sticker on saying 95 RON?
Jack
Jack
24 March 2010, 08:44 PM
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If you remap on 95 RON, you are missing out on 'free' horsepower gains available from using 97/98 RON or better still, 99 RON (VPower or Tescos 99)
A higher octane fuel will permit the addition of more timing over the lower octane 95 stuff - typically resulting in more power output from the engine.
Running on highe octane also promotes a cleaner burn within the cylinders - You would be amazed at the difference in carbon buildup in an engine that's been on 95RON, compared to Vpower.
In answer to your original question, after a custom remap you should notice both improved fuel economy at low RPM/throttle driving, and more power and torque at higher rpm and loads, over the standard map
A higher octane fuel will permit the addition of more timing over the lower octane 95 stuff - typically resulting in more power output from the engine.
Running on highe octane also promotes a cleaner burn within the cylinders - You would be amazed at the difference in carbon buildup in an engine that's been on 95RON, compared to Vpower.
In answer to your original question, after a custom remap you should notice both improved fuel economy at low RPM/throttle driving, and more power and torque at higher rpm and loads, over the standard map
24 March 2010, 08:48 PM
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If you remap on 95 RON, you are missing out on 'free' horsepower gains available from using 97/98 RON or better still, 99 RON (VPower or Tescos 99)
A higher octane fuel will permit the addition of more timing over the lower octane 95 stuff - typically resulting in more power output from the engine.
Running on highe octane also promotes a cleaner burn within the cylinders - You would be amazed at the difference in carbon buildup in an engine that's been on 95RON, compared to Vpower.
In answer to your original question, after a custom remap you should notice both improved fuel economy at low RPM/throttle driving, and more power and torque at higher rpm and loads, over the standard map
A higher octane fuel will permit the addition of more timing over the lower octane 95 stuff - typically resulting in more power output from the engine.
Running on highe octane also promotes a cleaner burn within the cylinders - You would be amazed at the difference in carbon buildup in an engine that's been on 95RON, compared to Vpower.
In answer to your original question, after a custom remap you should notice both improved fuel economy at low RPM/throttle driving, and more power and torque at higher rpm and loads, over the standard map
Re-map sounds even better now. Thanks for your advice!
Jack
24 March 2010, 09:15 PM
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The stock ecu is fairly advanced and has fuel and timing maps for high and low octane fuels, and calculates which table to use mainly based on feedback from the knock sensor - It also has a table for Fine Learned Knock Correction which as it's name suggest is a learned and adaptive table. It is applied to the main ignition table to subtract timing in the 'correct' places within the table, based on previous knock events. There are also other strategies within the ecu (such as the advance multipler) which all contribute to 'protect' your engine and deal with wear over time, bad fuel etc.
In short, your ecu 'should' be fine running on 95RON for extended periods, but more than likely will not be running at it's full potential/power output, even on the standard factory map on the ecu.
In short, your ecu 'should' be fine running on 95RON for extended periods, but more than likely will not be running at it's full potential/power output, even on the standard factory map on the ecu.
Last edited by FB Tuning; 24 March 2010 at 09:17 PM.
24 March 2010, 10:02 PM
#16
There's some dubious comments on here IMHO.
Mine is a WRX UK Bugeye Model and the fuel flap says "Super ONLY".
If that's what it says, that's what I'm putting in. Some companies offer maps which allow you to run on '95 but I don't believe the normal map accomodates that on a long term basis as standard.
In regards to the comments like "you should easily be getting 300 miles" - that all depends on your style of driving and the sort of driving you're doing.
I do a lot of to and from work journeys, typically 15 miles, so I don't get brilliant mpg - I commonly look at 210-220 miles off a full tank if I drive a 50:50 mixture of aggressive and passive. However, I am considering another remap as I think the car is running rich ATM.
I also believe that the size of the newage tanks changed between bugeye and blobeye / hawkeye shapes? I think the bugeye didn't get as big a tank but not sure.
Finally in regards to your mods, I would advise you to go all out and buy a full exhaust system and panel filter and remap in one go. I went the cat-back and remap route and it just isn't worth it - you only get about 30bhp more, and you could potentially get about 70bhp more if you put a panel filter in (Green or K&N are great - I run green in mine) and go for a decat centre, sports cat and decat up pipe, plus that way it still passes MOT.
HTH
Mine is a WRX UK Bugeye Model and the fuel flap says "Super ONLY".
If that's what it says, that's what I'm putting in. Some companies offer maps which allow you to run on '95 but I don't believe the normal map accomodates that on a long term basis as standard.
In regards to the comments like "you should easily be getting 300 miles" - that all depends on your style of driving and the sort of driving you're doing.
I do a lot of to and from work journeys, typically 15 miles, so I don't get brilliant mpg - I commonly look at 210-220 miles off a full tank if I drive a 50:50 mixture of aggressive and passive. However, I am considering another remap as I think the car is running rich ATM.
I also believe that the size of the newage tanks changed between bugeye and blobeye / hawkeye shapes? I think the bugeye didn't get as big a tank but not sure.
Finally in regards to your mods, I would advise you to go all out and buy a full exhaust system and panel filter and remap in one go. I went the cat-back and remap route and it just isn't worth it - you only get about 30bhp more, and you could potentially get about 70bhp more if you put a panel filter in (Green or K&N are great - I run green in mine) and go for a decat centre, sports cat and decat up pipe, plus that way it still passes MOT.
HTH
Last edited by MrNoisy; 24 March 2010 at 10:04 PM. Reason: .
24 March 2010, 10:17 PM
#17
The stock ecu is fairly advanced and has fuel and timing maps for high and low octane fuels, and calculates which table to use mainly based on feedback from the knock sensor - It also has a table for Fine Learned Knock Correction which as it's name suggest is a learned and adaptive table. It is applied to the main ignition table to subtract timing in the 'correct' places within the table, based on previous knock events. There are also other strategies within the ecu (such as the advance multipler) which all contribute to 'protect' your engine and deal with wear over time, bad fuel etc.
In short, your ecu 'should' be fine running on 95RON for extended periods, but more than likely will not be running at it's full potential/power output, even on the standard factory map on the ecu.
In short, your ecu 'should' be fine running on 95RON for extended periods, but more than likely will not be running at it's full potential/power output, even on the standard factory map on the ecu.
I wouldn't want to trust the ecu to manage det.
i'd put the proper fuel in and get the remap done.
24 March 2010, 10:25 PM
#18
There's some dubious comments on here IMHO.
Mine is a WRX UK Bugeye Model and the fuel flap says "Super ONLY".
If that's what it says, that's what I'm putting in. Some companies offer maps which allow you to run on '95 but I don't believe the normal map accomodates that on a long term basis as standard.
In regards to the comments like "you should easily be getting 300 miles" - that all depends on your style of driving and the sort of driving you're doing.
I do a lot of to and from work journeys, typically 15 miles, so I don't get brilliant mpg - I commonly look at 210-220 miles off a full tank if I drive a 50:50 mixture of aggressive and passive. However, I am considering another remap as I think the car is running rich ATM.
I also believe that the size of the newage tanks changed between bugeye and blobeye / hawkeye shapes? I think the bugeye didn't get as big a tank but not sure.
Finally in regards to your mods, I would advise you to go all out and buy a full exhaust system and panel filter and remap in one go. I went the cat-back and remap route and it just isn't worth it - you only get about 30bhp more, and you could potentially get about 70bhp more if you put a panel filter in (Green or K&N are great - I run green in mine) and go for a decat centre, sports cat and decat up pipe, plus that way it still passes MOT.
HTH
Mine is a WRX UK Bugeye Model and the fuel flap says "Super ONLY".
If that's what it says, that's what I'm putting in. Some companies offer maps which allow you to run on '95 but I don't believe the normal map accomodates that on a long term basis as standard.
In regards to the comments like "you should easily be getting 300 miles" - that all depends on your style of driving and the sort of driving you're doing.
I do a lot of to and from work journeys, typically 15 miles, so I don't get brilliant mpg - I commonly look at 210-220 miles off a full tank if I drive a 50:50 mixture of aggressive and passive. However, I am considering another remap as I think the car is running rich ATM.
I also believe that the size of the newage tanks changed between bugeye and blobeye / hawkeye shapes? I think the bugeye didn't get as big a tank but not sure.
Finally in regards to your mods, I would advise you to go all out and buy a full exhaust system and panel filter and remap in one go. I went the cat-back and remap route and it just isn't worth it - you only get about 30bhp more, and you could potentially get about 70bhp more if you put a panel filter in (Green or K&N are great - I run green in mine) and go for a decat centre, sports cat and decat up pipe, plus that way it still passes MOT.
HTH
23mpg would get you 300 miles from a 60 litre tank which isn't hard on a decent octane fuel
24 March 2010, 10:31 PM
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... if the ecu is seeing the correct input from the knock sensor. if that was truly the case (and I am sure it was subaru's intention) then no newage subaru would ever see any det. But they do and as said it can be very destructive.
I wouldn't want to trust the ecu to manage det.
i'd put the proper fuel in and get the remap done.
I wouldn't want to trust the ecu to manage det.
i'd put the proper fuel in and get the remap done.
Agreed, the OE ecu is not 'bulletproof' with regard to managing det associated with running on lower octane/bad fuel, but in most cases makes a good patch job of damage limitation and dealing with tolerences in wearing parts/sensor outputs over time.
Definately worth mapping any standard or modded motor on 'proper' fuel and sticking with it though
25 March 2010, 12:40 AM
#21
Sure, if I drive 90% of the time on the motorway or open roads off boost I can see around 280-300 miles.
But I don't, so it's not a like for like.
Example, over last weekend I did a 100 miles journey round the M4 and M25, where it's currently SPECS central, so a lot of 50mph average speed zones.
Did the 100 miles back again, and the car's petrol light still hasn't come on another 60 miles of short trips later, so 263 miles on mixed driving so far.
I'm hoping for another remap to up my figures slightly soon, but ultimately - it's a Scooby not a Fiesta so I'm not going to get great economy on short journeys!
But I don't, so it's not a like for like.
Example, over last weekend I did a 100 miles journey round the M4 and M25, where it's currently SPECS central, so a lot of 50mph average speed zones.
Did the 100 miles back again, and the car's petrol light still hasn't come on another 60 miles of short trips later, so 263 miles on mixed driving so far.
I'm hoping for another remap to up my figures slightly soon, but ultimately - it's a Scooby not a Fiesta so I'm not going to get great economy on short journeys!
Last edited by MrNoisy; 25 March 2010 at 11:43 AM.
31 March 2010, 08:18 PM
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Just an update, I've used 2 full tanks of 97 RON (Sainsburys) unleaded now. First tank 215 miles, second tank 250 miles. Commute to work is approx 40 miles each way, good fast A/B roads. I'd estimate 50% gentle, 50% hard.
Thanks for all input Gentlemen
Thanks for all input Gentlemen
01 April 2010, 09:52 PM
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There's none near me, or even on my commute. The nearest Shell garage to me is 8 miles as the crow flies, but its more like 15 miles by road, and it's in a direction I rarely venture, sod's law..There's a BP near me, and an ASDA near work, any more fuel advice Duncan?
Jack
Last edited by hawkeye_WRX; 01 April 2010 at 09:54 PM.
