scotty44

iTrader: (12)

Ok I’ve searched this here and still not convinced on what the difference is....
EcuTek mapping you get a licence, open mapping you don’t but what are the pro’s and con’s

Would I be right saying an open map is your map being tweaked and a EcuTek map is your map being replaced with a base map then tweaked ?
I’ve read that both maps would give you the same outcome? + 45bhp ?

I spoke to a company at the weekend that said they could map it for £420 without a licence or if I wanted a licence it would be £150 more, now what would that £150 more get me other than next time the cost would be alot less?

I’m after MY03 STi mapped ASAP as I’ve just fitted a de-cat (turbo back), panel filter and fuel pump.
Any help on this would be appreciated

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

It comes down to who is doing the mapping, not the software used. Dynamix on here maps using non-ECUTek software, there are plenty of ECUTek mappers to choose from. ECUTek is well down the list in the States behind AccessPort, Cobb and OpenSource, there just doesn't seem to be the following here yet..........

Edit to say - the following doesn't seem to be there in the Subaru community yet, the Evo community have embraced and now prefer OS.

Splitpin

The main difference is the tools used to do the job. EcuTeK is a commercial company providing a unified set of tools that mappers have to buy, for money, and you, as an end user, also need to pay a fee to use, over and above your mapper's time.

The "open source" approach involves other bits of software that may or may not be free, and may or may not be as good, or as comprehensive, as what EcuTeK offers.

It's a bit like comparing Microsoft software (which you have to pay for) with OpenOffice, which is free. Both offer a word processor which enables you to write letters. Word is the established market leader, while Writer is a different way of achieving the same result.

The Tek "licence" is nothing more than a receipt really, a digital code left on your ECU that proves to the EcuTeK software that your ECU has already been remapped via their process, and therefore entitles you to a discount on future uses of the software.

Yes and no, and, um, yes. The thing you haven't considered in that question is the individual skills of the mapper. Many experienced mappers will start from a base map that is reasonably well suited to your engine configuration and then work from there. That applies no matter which tools are used.

As above the key point is the skills of the mapper. A skilled mapper using open source or TeK tools would theoretically achieve an almost identical result. However, there are also some less than reputable individuals around who are doing little more than downloading tools for free off the web, in many cases downloading firmware files that other people have made, and then charging users to flash them without really knowing what they're doing.

One of the "fringe benefits" of the EcuTeK system is that the costs of buying into it meant that the only people who got involved were professionals who knew what they were doing and intended to make a business out of it. Now, anyone can download some stuff from the web and claim to be "a mapper".

As such the reputation of the mapper concerned is probably more important than the tools used to achieve the map.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

ECUTEK map is done by an ECUTEK Dealer's who have paid to use the software application and who can be provided with on-call support from ECUTEK head office.
The licence is installed on the ECU which then causes the ECU to be locked to use ECUTEK flashing applications only.

OpenSource is free software that provides the same/similar ability to map/flash and log ECU data. It was developed in the USA and is widley used over there and slowley being used more often over here.
It does not require a licence and does not lock the ECU.

OpenSource mappers can be anyone from Fred next door to a profesional engine diagnostics/tuner/specialist.
Opensource is initially cheaper by approx £250 as you do not require a licence/charged a licence fee.

Personally, I think OpenSource is great and the support network of users in USA provides more information then you could ever digest...although some of them to get very **** TBH.

But as mentioned above, it can be abused so don't accept a 10min reflash as a remap.
A remap should ideally be done on the rollers or the road and take anything from 1.5-3 hours with either ECUTEK of OpenSource.
And most importantly involve connecting more then just a laptop to the diagnostics port.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Aside from the mapper (which is the single most important element), the only real difference is the upfront license fee that an ecutek customer has to pay.

Both can start with a base or std for that model map and tweak upwards from that although most mappers have already mapped many of the same model (with similar mods) so save some initial legwork by using a map that they have devised of some shap and then build from there as each subaru is different. This ends up with a custom map designed for your car/mods.

Tweaks tend to be similarly priced between the two on the whole as if we have already done the main map and know the car, amending it for new mods is a lot quicker process and we are able to best guess how a particular car will respond to various changes in advance.

There are some differences in the things that can be added alongside the main map though at the moment although it appears that ecutek will be able to add some features shortly that we can add on non ecutek software.

Essentially though, they have the same access to the calibration of the ecu with some minor differences in the tables that are accessible - these are 6 of one and half a dozen of the other as to whether they are important (things such as idle timing and speed limiters don't seem to be accessible in ecutek at the moment). None of these play a major part in a mapping session though IMO.

Tidgy

The map, OS or EcuTek is only as good as the mapper. Some folks who don't use ecutek is because they can't get a license to the software because ecutek wont trade with them. EcuTek also have alot of support for there trders

Problem with OS is alot of the folks do it tend to be small outfits that are people thinking, o i can make some money here. you may save £150 up front, but what support does it come with?

most open source mappers do it on the road, tend not have the tech knowledge to do it (not always so before someone jumps down my throat). Also there comes in that a road mapper is unlikley to have the back up of a workshop with parts on the shelf ready to go if theres an issue or if something goes wrong and you need a rebuild.

also the legal side of it is a complete minefield.

Lets say your driving your car for a mapper and you crash, kill someone in the absolute worst case (not that you'd want to) where do you stand legaly? i'd put money on your own insurance company walking away from you, does the mapper have the correct insurances public liability, profesional endemnaty (i think that's the relevant one in this case but sure someone will correct me if im wrong) etc what happens when police say, 'why were you doing 130mph?'

its a serious minefield not only open source mapping but road mapping.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

I agree - totally different question though and worthy of more than one thread of its own

Some OS mappers have access to dyno facilities too

Tidgy

indeed fella, hence comment about not all cases lol

but sure even you will admit its extreamly easy to set up a open ampping company with little to know technical or legal back up

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Absolutely.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

This sounds a little under-hand to me.
When I enquired about becoming a ECUTEK dealer earlier this year, I was grilled about my current mapping tools.
They guessed I was using OpenSource as they new I was mapping 2001> Impreza.
So they specified that if I were to become and ECUTEK dealer I would have to declare I would not use the OpenSource application (or words to that effect) once a ECUTEK dealer.

Your quote would indicate that the company in question is using both applications.

scotty44

iTrader: (12)

Thanks guy's that has answered all I needed to know


That is just what I was thinking when I was told!!!!

Oh well you guy's have helped anyway

Alan Jeffery

Absolutely. We've heard some real horror stories, and seen the effects of poor decision making by people under pressure to deliver a result they aren't equipped for.
Just one point, why do you think ALL the top tuning businesses own their own dyno? I'd say that kind of investment is only made after a good deal of intelligent thinking.

Andy.F

All Ecutek software is engineered and extensively tested by a professional company before release and then only to to its qualified agents.

As an aside, I read the following on the open source mapping website.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember, that RomRaider and the definitions file are currently in beta status. This means that the software is being tested to fix any bugs and problems that may arise. As such, it is recommended for advanced users. There have been quite a few successful flashes and tunes, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be a bug, error or misrepresentation of data that might cause serious problems down the road for a user. Remember, this software is not a commercial product, with money set aside for R&D. It was created by a group of enthusiasts who work in their spare time, for free, on the project.
Even if you experience no bugs or errors, there are no safe guards in place to prevent you from making improper tuning changes resulting in a blown motor and/or unexpected behavior when driving.
What is the worse case scenario if something goes wrong?
The problems that have the potential to occur include, but are not limited to:
An unreadable/unusable ECU.
A blown motor and its subsequent damage.
Unexpected behavior on the road or track that may cause injury or death to the user as well as others.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Andy.F

This is not entirely true. Open source DIY mappers can now hack into Ecutek maps and for want of a better expression "steal" the maps from a professionally mapped ECU. This programme calibration could be the culmination of many years of development by the pro tuner.
So next time you get offered a cheap map or someone willing to "check out" your performance proven Ecutek map free of charge, just bear this fact in mind !!

Andy

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

Whilst I agree with you mostly Alan, there are some companies that have a rolling road first and then start tuning.. it is easy to assume because they have a rolling road they know how to tune, when they don't. I am of course not including you in that and not in anyway having a dig at you. It is a progressive step... owner of dyno sees mappers coming and using his dyno and wants a bigger cut than just the dyno time.

Simon

scoobiewrx555

EcuTek dealers are naturally protective of their business, as we all are, and rightly so. Equally they have invested not insignificant amounts of money into their EcuTek dealership both in the cost of the EcuTek dealership itself but also in advertising, tools, their reputation, and everything else that goes with it.

I have to say though, EcuTek have had it their own way for far too long now and have totally monopolised Subaru and Mistubishi tuning since Suabru V5/V6 days. There is now an alternative that is equally as effective as EcuTek and is used by some very eloquent and experienced mappers that actually do know what they are doing. It doesn't matter if they do or don't have a rolling road as all maps are finished properly on the road....not a Dyno!!

As has already been said a few times now and is so very true....it's all down to the mapper and how well they do their thing regardless of software used. Just because a tuner has an EcuTek dealership it doesn't make them a good tuner. EcuTek's criteria for appointing dealerships comes down to whatever they feel like saying at the time of enquiry, and ultimately put up so many silly barriers that they end up doing themselves out of good business and p1ssing off a lot of potentially good clients that end up sticking with OS never to reconsider EcuTek. This will ultimately be EcuTek's undoing.

Also damage/liability......Any mapper, EcuTek or OS should be fully insured and have the appropriate liability cover for the work they do. I can tell you now...it ain't cheap but as far as i'm concerned it's an absolute requirement!!

EcuTek dealers have every right to be concerned. OS mapping is now in the UK and it's here to stay. It's gaining in popularity and one of these days it will be as widely used here as it is in the USA and be equally as popular as EcuTek. That represents a fairly big chunk of revenue that EcuTek are going to lose. They should be properly cheesed off at that prospect!!

A very decent level of support is provided to tuners by the software guru's that put OS together, and the thousands of experienced users and tuners in the OS community that use it on a daily basis to great effect. Don't think for one second OS is inferior to EcuTek because it's not.

Finally....Any OS tuner that aspires to be as good as AndyF, JGM, Pat Herborn, Paul Blamire and other notable tuners is alright in my book. That not only shows passion and commitment to the business of tuning but clearly shows they really love what they do and that makes them a better tuner. If a tuner is only interested in the money then they sure as hell wouldn't be getting my business, and there are plenty of them about in both camps!!

OS or EcuTek.....A tuner is only as good as his last remap!!

madscanman2

its like paying vat a licence ? for what ? some thing they had to invest in at first , open source is the way forward , i think , and its only as good as the mapper ? i tryed 2 get a map off "top man" he would not even answer phone , emails , as he was god at the time , now they are all sweating as soft wear is there for mappers ,the man that dose mine ,it takes hours .its like when u had to shop in your main street all them years ago , then asda tesco aldi came out of town in a place ten mines away , and u got such a saving its worth going to save money , you went there? same thing , compertion not fixed price , most garantee there work to , its not as if subaru make the soft wear , good look to all u peoples people , dragons den ha ,

Andy.F

I'm not sure any of the established professional tuners are sweating ! I for one am booked around 4-5 weeks ahead and have been like this for the past 5-6 years and I don't advertise anywhere !
I also don't believe you are just "as good as your last map" what if that was a stolen map ? instant success ? I don't think so !!! A good reputation should normally take many years to gain.

To the poster above, if the reference re difficult contact was with me then I apologise for being so busy, I would normally try to get back to emails within a few days.

As mentioned in a previous post, the free software out there is improving but it IS still in beta testing, Ecutek however is fully proven 'in house' by a team of full time developers before release to its qualified dealers, so you can be sure there are going to be no glitches in your cars map that may only surface at a later date. That is what the additional licence cost brings in terms of customer confidence.

The following is a link to the OS website, it shows a list of the latest faults/glitches/fixed in software releases right up to a few weeks ago !!

https://svn2.assembla.com/svn/romrai...ease_notes.txt


A key factor from OS is this statement "Please be aware that as
RomRaider is still in beta status and changing frequently,
documentation may be incomplete or out of date."

Should it ever get fixed properly then yes maybe i will consider it and once it has been proven to achieve the same consistent standards as a professional product such as Ecutek then the savings can be passed on directly to the customer.

cheers

Andy

Wagwann

Would a remap be best on the rolling road? And do mapper take a readings off the throttle sensor?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Totally agree re romraider - i think that software is fairly clunky although I know people use it very successfully. I don't personally use it as there is other software in that community that is much better and in a lot of ways much more advanced than ecutek. But as has been said - it is a tool to do a job.

But software is software - is anything ever fully 100% bug free - the fact that there is a development/big fix list there only proves to show development is ongoing. Does everyone slate microsoft or apple for bringing out software patches ? (ok maybe MS is a bad example )

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Loui - yours is a different kettle of fish as it is a classic and needs the ESL board to be able to recalibrate it.

As for the rolling road vs open road mapping that is another big can of worms and the subject of many a thread on here and other forums.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

I think the Professional Mappers have spoken (though a bit of input from Bob Rawle would be nice also )
As its been said, ecutek are a professional software company, os in comparison is a little "fly by night", and yes you have to pay for a licence on ecutek (as you do on things like microsoft products) and yes its also down to the mapper, but I would rather have a company that can fix an issue quickly with their software than one that may take some considerable time, especially if you have a waiting list, and it opens up the opportunity for someone who is not so... well reputable though probably not the best word to use, more like amature or insufficiently skilled in the area of mapping/mechanics to jump in and cause havoc because they dont know what they are doing.
Also a big can of worms!

Think I shall be sticking to people I know and proven software, even if it is more expensive, its still cheaper than a full engine rebuild

Tony

STiFreak

iTrader: (4)

I've been using RomRaider and ecuEdit for 2 years now with great results and to be honest I've not found any glitches in the software, had any issues with flashing or functionality.

From what I've heard, ecuTek seem to be directing most of their development time to other marques ecu's now anyway.

Each to their own though.

my94wrx

iTrader: (4)

what software do you use?

Wagwann

Lol this hole remapping really confuse's me ha, I think I be leaving it to the experts like yourself ha
See you soon

scoobyboothy

iTrader: (1)

is there anyway of telling if your ecu has been rempped., mines an MY99 with an E3 ecu

Andy.F

Its unlikely have been mapped by Rom raider or similar free software as they have not yet managed to hack into the 99/00 or Sti5/6 cars. Any Ecutek dealer would be able to plug in and tell you if it is original or Ecutek tuned.

Ecutek have recently directed a lot of development into the new 'Racerom' product for Subaru however they are forced to delay release and spend valuable resources tightening up on their software security as their work is continually being hacked and copied by their competitors.

Andy

Alan Jeffery

Hi Simon

When I said TOP tuning companies that's exactly what I meant. I'm looking at it the other way around, with the likes of Roger Clark Motorsport taking the trouble to spend what is serious money on one as they know full well it's the way to go.
As you say, just the act of buying a dyno doesn't confer anything, any more than owning a laptop does! We know of a couple of businesses who bought a dyno, thinking it was easy, then found out to the cost of their customers that it isn't.
We tune a large number of different types, often in situations where you have to have dyno testing involved. There isn't a socket for a laptop on a classic Mustang for example!

Regards, and best wishes for 2010... Alan

360ste

iTrader: (1)

Thanks to all the mappers who are contirbuting to this thread. Next year I will be getting my OE ECU (normally run GEMS) mapped and was not sure wether to spend the extra on the Ecutek or go for the OS option. This has answered a few questions I had and raised a few points I had not thought about.
Have a great Christmas and a prosporous New Year, Steve

scoobiewrx555

I look forward to more OS/Ecutek debates as i'm sure they will happen but 5yrs from now it will be very interesting to see how the market develops, and if we'e still at the current status quo. The automotive market moves quickly, things can change overnight and OS uptake is growing all the time. Established EcuTek mappers with that hard earned rep will no doubt always be busy like Andy F, however as time goes by a number of OS mappers will gain similar reputations and then we'll have a level playing field. By then you never know, one or two EcuTek mappers might defect to the dark side

Show me a piece of software that isn't Beta if it's always being developed and continually updated. If it stops being developed it will cease to be any good. Open Source is exactly that and as such will never ever be anything but beta. Equally i don't think EcuTek have hundreds of little developers all doing their bit to make it just that bit better. These are people that do this for nothing, purely from the love of what they do. That's what makes OS so bloody good!! That's far more powerful than any commercial gain to be had by licensing a product.

Duncan's example of Microsoft is a very good analogy with development going on all the time, and when you throw Linux and Mac into the cooking pot I see many similarities between that and the EcuTek/OS situation.

Things will change one day and EcuTek won't be in such a domineering position. It's just a matter of time but rest assured it will happen.