EcuTek mapping Vs Open mapping ?
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From: 32 cylinders and many cats
I just heard of a dyno that is setup in a 180mph wind tunnel. That sounds appealing if the software to set the load is also very clever, but the expense is going to more than most of us will earn in a lifetime.
All a compromise at the end of the day, both methods have problems and when everyone acknowledges that there is no issue and room for differences of opinion.
I don't envy road mappers for the safety risks I have to admit, although Andy paints a good picture of his experience. My partner in medical practice runs the medical centre at a nearby circuit and the offer has been there for testing. Since I don't do any mapping of customer cars these days I've not taken him up on it. Even if paying, since you can have a 1 hour driving experience for about £80 or £100 including an instructor with just one other car on the circuit, I suspect if you chose your hours at a small circuit it could be feasible. Bob uses Bruntingthorpe with success I believe.
All a compromise at the end of the day, both methods have problems and when everyone acknowledges that there is no issue and room for differences of opinion.
I don't envy road mappers for the safety risks I have to admit, although Andy paints a good picture of his experience. My partner in medical practice runs the medical centre at a nearby circuit and the offer has been there for testing. Since I don't do any mapping of customer cars these days I've not taken him up on it. Even if paying, since you can have a 1 hour driving experience for about £80 or £100 including an instructor with just one other car on the circuit, I suspect if you chose your hours at a small circuit it could be feasible. Bob uses Bruntingthorpe with success I believe.
Last edited by john banks; Jan 13, 2010 at 01:02 PM.
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From: Notts
This is not just limited to JB and his GTR's. Many of the OEM and aftermarket Subaru ECU's have per gear boost control. This can be set up on the road to make a faster accelerating car by tailoring the wastegate and boost settings appropriate to the actual acceleration rate of any particular gear.
This cannot be evaluated on the rollers, in fact as previously mentioned you are likely to get an ill performing car, either not achieving boost target or overboosting and therefore showing either poor numbers or an irregular graph.
(ideal opportunity to recommend a remap though
)
This goes some way to explaining why a car showing lower numbers on the rollers can be faster on the road than someone with a bigger number.
Putting the danger in perspective, out of the tens of thousands of maps done by hundreds of tuners on the road, I know of only 1 fatal/serious accident which may be related however who's to say that actually occurred as a direct result of mapping, as opposed to the sort of accident that happens to regular people in bog standard cars.
Personally in the past 8 years having mapped somewhere between 4000 and 5000 Subarus on the road, I have not been involved in 1 single accident related to speed. These are the sort of odds I have no problem with
Andy
This cannot be evaluated on the rollers, in fact as previously mentioned you are likely to get an ill performing car, either not achieving boost target or overboosting and therefore showing either poor numbers or an irregular graph.
(ideal opportunity to recommend a remap though
)This goes some way to explaining why a car showing lower numbers on the rollers can be faster on the road than someone with a bigger number.
Putting the danger in perspective, out of the tens of thousands of maps done by hundreds of tuners on the road, I know of only 1 fatal/serious accident which may be related however who's to say that actually occurred as a direct result of mapping, as opposed to the sort of accident that happens to regular people in bog standard cars.
Personally in the past 8 years having mapped somewhere between 4000 and 5000 Subarus on the road, I have not been involved in 1 single accident related to speed. These are the sort of odds I have no problem with
Andy
just don't mention the legality of it,,,,,,,,
just a thought
For other readers, Paul has mapped my car extensively on the road and on the dyno. I believe I've got the best of both worlds
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From: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
I just heard of a dyno that is setup in a 180mph wind tunnel. That sounds appealing if the software to set the load is also very clever, but the expense is going to more than most of us will earn in a lifetime.
All a compromise at the end of the day, both methods have problems and when everyone acknowledges that there is no issue and room for differences of opinion.
I don't envy road mappers for the safety risks I have to admit, although Andy paints a good picture of his experience. My partner in medical practice runs the medical centre at a nearby circuit and the offer has been there for testing. Since I don't do any mapping of customer cars these days I've not taken him up on it. Even if paying, since you can have a 1 hour driving experience for about £80 or £100 including an instructor with just one other car on the circuit, I suspect if you chose your hours at a small circuit it could be feasible. Bob uses Bruntingthorpe with success I believe.
All a compromise at the end of the day, both methods have problems and when everyone acknowledges that there is no issue and room for differences of opinion.
I don't envy road mappers for the safety risks I have to admit, although Andy paints a good picture of his experience. My partner in medical practice runs the medical centre at a nearby circuit and the offer has been there for testing. Since I don't do any mapping of customer cars these days I've not taken him up on it. Even if paying, since you can have a 1 hour driving experience for about £80 or £100 including an instructor with just one other car on the circuit, I suspect if you chose your hours at a small circuit it could be feasible. Bob uses Bruntingthorpe with success I believe.
I certainly envy the space at Bruntingthorpe, I'd be in clover with that right next door.
I recommend Llandow if you get the chance, lovely little circuit, and not expensive, other than that we'd go off to Castle Combe.
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From: 32 cylinders and many cats
Cam maps was an area where I would have liked a dyno on both the Evo and GTR. Both had only intake cam timing on the models I am interested in. What I did was to measure the airflow, boost pressure, intake cam advance, knock, ignition timing and RPM at high speed during WOT runs on the same stretch of tarmac in the same gear. Both setups ended up with maximum possible intake cam advance for spool up and midrange with gains in rate of change of RPM, gains in boost vs RPM, and gains is airflow/RPM vs boost. Then I tried various rates of decay to red line. The main hassle was other traffic.
I've not attempted variable cam timing mapping on a dyno. It might be quite a revelation especially with realtime mapping, but would it be valid if the boost and knock thresholds didn't behave like they did on the road? I would think it is best done at the boost level I'm going to use on the road and there is an obvious interaction between ignition and cam timing too. Would you retard the ignition a bit and drop the boost to do the cam timing mapping and then put it back on the road afterwards? Genuinely interested in your thoughts on this one Paul/Alan.
I've not attempted variable cam timing mapping on a dyno. It might be quite a revelation especially with realtime mapping, but would it be valid if the boost and knock thresholds didn't behave like they did on the road? I would think it is best done at the boost level I'm going to use on the road and there is an obvious interaction between ignition and cam timing too. Would you retard the ignition a bit and drop the boost to do the cam timing mapping and then put it back on the road afterwards? Genuinely interested in your thoughts on this one Paul/Alan.
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From: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Cam maps was an area where I would have liked a dyno on both the Evo and GTR. Both had only intake cam timing on the models I am interested in. What I did was to measure the airflow, boost pressure, intake cam advance, knock, ignition timing and RPM at high speed during WOT runs on the same stretch of tarmac in the same gear. Both setups ended up with maximum possible intake cam advance for spool up and midrange with gains in rate of change of RPM, gains in boost vs RPM, and gains is airflow/RPM vs boost. Then I tried various rates of decay to red line. The main hassle was other traffic.
I've not attempted variable cam timing mapping on a dyno. It might be quite a revelation especially with realtime mapping, but would it be valid if the boost and knock thresholds didn't behave like they did on the road? I would think it is best done at the boost level I'm going to use on the road and there is an obvious interaction between ignition and cam timing too. Would you retard the ignition a bit and drop the boost to do the cam timing mapping and then put it back on the road afterwards? Genuinely interested in your thoughts on this one Paul/Alan.
I've not attempted variable cam timing mapping on a dyno. It might be quite a revelation especially with realtime mapping, but would it be valid if the boost and knock thresholds didn't behave like they did on the road? I would think it is best done at the boost level I'm going to use on the road and there is an obvious interaction between ignition and cam timing too. Would you retard the ignition a bit and drop the boost to do the cam timing mapping and then put it back on the road afterwards? Genuinely interested in your thoughts on this one Paul/Alan.
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Paul, Your TA cars are to all intents and purposes full on race cars, stripped, caged, full safety features, race tyres, as per rules and regs etc...etc...
Before you got the rollers and perhaps even since you've had the rollers were any of your TA cars road legal in race trim, and did you ever map any of your TA cars on the road, or was it purely rented roller time and on circuit mapping??
Before you got the rollers and perhaps even since you've had the rollers were any of your TA cars road legal in race trim, and did you ever map any of your TA cars on the road, or was it purely rented roller time and on circuit mapping??
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From: Wellingborough, Northamptonshire
Even on an autronic where you haven't got fine closed loop fuel control, and closed loop knock control, it's very easy. I find the best way is to get the car on load, hold it for a second or so with the new cam value ready, hit enter and watch the power. For lower load zones it's okay to just hold it indefinitely (say at 0.4 bar) but really you can play endlessly. The main thing is you can alter the spool point, so you don't necessarily tune the 1 bar region, as you may find that without a certain cam advance you just can't get to the 1 bar load zone. So then you're looking at changing the boost charactristics themselves which is where the biggest gains are. Once you can get the turbo spooling where it wasn't before, the gains of say 5 degrees on the cam can be subtle.
Paul, Your TA cars are to all intents and purposes full on race cars, stripped, caged, full safety features, race tyres, as per rules and regs etc...etc...
Before you got the rollers and perhaps even since you've had the rollers were any of your TA cars road legal in race trim, and did you ever map any of your TA cars on the road, or was it purely rented roller time and on circuit mapping??
Before you got the rollers and perhaps even since you've had the rollers were any of your TA cars road legal in race trim, and did you ever map any of your TA cars on the road, or was it purely rented roller time and on circuit mapping??
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From: Wellingborough, Northamptonshire
The green car was never really finished on the road, instead some data logging was done on track to fine tune it, but mainly because we always ran out of time to map it on the dyno, and there was little point thrashing it on the dyno when we could be testing on track and sorting other areas of the car.
I had no issue at all with mapping our green car 100% on the dyno, as the rear radiator meant the heat loading on the engine bay was almost the same on the dyno as on track. But the knock and lambda control of the Solaris/Syvec ECU meant that we had the chance to optimise it on track with confidence. The thing with 600hp is that even a relatively long straight on track is quite quickly over with.
I had no issue at all with mapping our green car 100% on the dyno, as the rear radiator meant the heat loading on the engine bay was almost the same on the dyno as on track. But the knock and lambda control of the Solaris/Syvec ECU meant that we had the chance to optimise it on track with confidence. The thing with 600hp is that even a relatively long straight on track is quite quickly over with.
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From: In the Flatlands of Lincolnshire
From my quick flick through this thread. A combination of road and dyno mapping is the way ahead. Just wether you map on the road first then fine tune on the rollers followed by another tarmac ripping run or do you set it up on the dyno followed by a tweak on the road? My bugeye running a GEMS ECU has only been mapped on the dyno and works well putting out 441bhp on scoobyclinics rollers earlier this year. Not sure if driveability would improve slightly by road mapping may ask Steve Simpson ,who maps mine, about it.
Oh well , thread resurrection.... It's been a while and a lot of things progressed ,improved since then... So at this stage how did OS improved compared to EcuTek? What people more likely to use these days at the certain stage of tune where no aftermarket ecu is required?
Would be really interesting to know, as at the end of this thread it all went out of topic...
Would be really interesting to know, as at the end of this thread it all went out of topic...
you can have a Muppet working for a Company but a really good mapper on OS,
Its down to knowledge and experience imo not the name above the door.
EcuTek give only support mappers/dealers
EcuTek is overpriced and mainly lack of features,this is main issue,why people choose go with aftermarket ECU or Open Source
As you know its down to tools used and mapper used,its never will be down to the SW which he using
Jura
I'm sure I've asked this before but I can't remember the answer. At the moment I'm running ecutek map, IF I wanted to have an OS map would I loose my ecutek licence? Not that I'm too worried but come resale time (should I ever sell 
) some people prefer the ecutek route to the OS route.
What about twin maps etc on the jdm blob ecu, are all the features available through OS that are available through ecutek? I'm assuming so
OS seems to be making more of an appearance these days and I'm guessing it boils down to cost tbth, has anyone had any major issues going the OS route that couldn't be rectified but would have been if it had been ecutek? You can see the support infrastructure with the ecutek which in one sense is a big piece of mind for some people.
Question for the mappers:- disregard the support network of the ecutek a min, is mapping a car the same through OS as it is ecutek? I.E can / could the ecutek mappers map with OS if they wanted? Obviously the OS can't map the ecutek down to the distribution rights I'm guessing? But again is that the only thing that stops you from mapping ecutek? Is it purely the support you receive from Ecutek that sways your reason to leave the OS route alone?
Not tryin to pick any wars
just a general question
) some people prefer the ecutek route to the OS route. What about twin maps etc on the jdm blob ecu, are all the features available through OS that are available through ecutek? I'm assuming so
OS seems to be making more of an appearance these days and I'm guessing it boils down to cost tbth, has anyone had any major issues going the OS route that couldn't be rectified but would have been if it had been ecutek? You can see the support infrastructure with the ecutek which in one sense is a big piece of mind for some people.
Question for the mappers:- disregard the support network of the ecutek a min, is mapping a car the same through OS as it is ecutek? I.E can / could the ecutek mappers map with OS if they wanted? Obviously the OS can't map the ecutek down to the distribution rights I'm guessing? But again is that the only thing that stops you from mapping ecutek? Is it purely the support you receive from Ecutek that sways your reason to leave the OS route alone?
Not tryin to pick any wars
just a general question
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From: Notts
sorry just to clarify, supporting the mapper, not me direct.
you can be the most experianced mapper in the world, but there can be odd funny codes that are very infrequently kicked up, if every at all.
Lets say for example ECu kicks up a 722 code (random number plucked from the air) and its very rare, if you go open source who can the mapper go back to to ask? no one knows everything, if they claim they do there lying.
you can be the most experianced mapper in the world, but there can be odd funny codes that are very infrequently kicked up, if every at all.
Lets say for example ECu kicks up a 722 code (random number plucked from the air) and its very rare, if you go open source who can the mapper go back to to ask? no one knows everything, if they claim they do there lying.
Last edited by Tidgy; Jun 10, 2013 at 12:21 PM.
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From: 5 beats 4 - RS3 Rulez!!!
I strongly disagree with a number of things you have said.
Stating something to be "overpriced" is subjective to say the least.
"Lack of features"..... very subjective, especially when you're comparing Opensource and EcuTEK. If you look at RaceROM vs Opensource, RaceROM is a lot better and more of a stable platform. Sure, prior to RaceROM it was much of a muchness.
It certainly can be down to the software, as much as the mapper at times.
I'm sure I've asked this before but I can't remember the answer. At the moment I'm running ecutek map, IF I wanted to have an OS map would I loose my ecutek licence? Not that I'm too worried but come resale time (should I ever sell ) some people prefer the ecutek route to the OS route.
What about twin maps etc on the jdm blob ecu, are all the features available through OS that are available through ecutek? I'm assuming so
OS seems to be making more of an appearance these days and I'm guessing it boils down to cost tbth, has anyone had any major issues going the OS route that couldn't be rectified but would have been if it had been ecutek? You can see the support infrastructure with the ecutek which in one sense is a big piece of mind for some people.
Question for the mappers:- disregard the support network of the ecutek a min, is mapping a car the same through OS as it is ecutek? I.E can / could the ecutek mappers map with OS if they wanted? Obviously the OS can't map the ecutek down to the distribution rights I'm guessing? But again is that the only thing that stops you from mapping ecutek? Is it purely the support you receive from Ecutek that sways your reason to leave the OS route alone?
Not tryin to pick any wars just a general question
) some people prefer the ecutek route to the OS route. What about twin maps etc on the jdm blob ecu, are all the features available through OS that are available through ecutek? I'm assuming so
OS seems to be making more of an appearance these days and I'm guessing it boils down to cost tbth, has anyone had any major issues going the OS route that couldn't be rectified but would have been if it had been ecutek? You can see the support infrastructure with the ecutek which in one sense is a big piece of mind for some people.
Question for the mappers:- disregard the support network of the ecutek a min, is mapping a car the same through OS as it is ecutek? I.E can / could the ecutek mappers map with OS if they wanted? Obviously the OS can't map the ecutek down to the distribution rights I'm guessing? But again is that the only thing that stops you from mapping ecutek? Is it purely the support you receive from Ecutek that sways your reason to leave the OS route alone?
Not tryin to pick any wars
just a general question Hi there
If you will go with OS you will no loose EcuTek licence.I've run before wagon mapped via OS and we are never have any problems,car has run spotless
All those features which are available on EcuTek(twin maps etc.) are available too on OS(CarBerry ROM).JDM ECU(STi or WRX) can have two maps without the problem
EcuTek mappers can map via OS,but not sure how will look on this EcuTek itself
And about the mapping over EcuTek via OS is possible
Jura
Jura,
I strongly disagree with a number of things you have said.
Stating something to be "overpriced" is subjective to say the least.
"Lack of features"..... very subjective, especially when you're comparing Opensource and EcuTEK. If you look at RaceROM vs Opensource, RaceROM is a lot better and more of a stable platform. Sure, prior to RaceROM it was much of a muchness.
It certainly can be down to the software, as much as the mapper at times.
I strongly disagree with a number of things you have said.
Stating something to be "overpriced" is subjective to say the least.
"Lack of features"..... very subjective, especially when you're comparing Opensource and EcuTEK. If you look at RaceROM vs Opensource, RaceROM is a lot better and more of a stable platform. Sure, prior to RaceROM it was much of a muchness.
It certainly can be down to the software, as much as the mapper at times.
Hi Shaun
Lack of features,have look on older pre 06 models,which can't have RaceRom and on those cars/ECU you can't have Dual fuel maps etc(Yes via MegaROM you can have those functions,but MegaROM is only available only on JDM cars)
Agreed on some cars this can be down to the SW(on 06 cars onwards),where CarBerry is not available,but will ask you if Bob Rawle will start map via OS,would you consider have car mapped via OS(on few minutes forget on the you are supported by EcuTek
)Second point many WRX owners with pre 06 can't have those functions via EcuTek
Overpricing point,its down to personal preference and mainly down to the budget
Jura
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From: 5 beats 4 - RS3 Rulez!!!
Hi Jura,
My comments were to address some form of balance. Ergo to state that there are areas where the EcuTEK route is better than OS. It's swings and roundabouts though as you suggest, depending on model of OEM ECU you have.
I haven't got a problem with OS mapping software par se.
Of course I'm not naïve to suggest that price is not a factor when it comes to this kind of thing, and for some that is THE most important factor.
My comments were to address some form of balance. Ergo to state that there are areas where the EcuTEK route is better than OS. It's swings and roundabouts though as you suggest, depending on model of OEM ECU you have.
I haven't got a problem with OS mapping software par se.
Of course I'm not naïve to suggest that price is not a factor when it comes to this kind of thing, and for some that is THE most important factor.
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From: North Yorkshire / Boston, MA
From working with non-car related computer systems for a few years, I've learned that many opensource communities offer far better levels of support than branded licensed products do, the only issue with opensource software is that nobody is obliged to provide that support.
OS products are often the pride and joy of a number of hobbyists, so the enthusiasm to iron out bugs is driven far more aggressively than that of a faceless brand who are just meeting SLAs.
Some generalisations above, but my observations of software developers away from the remapping scene.
OS products are often the pride and joy of a number of hobbyists, so the enthusiasm to iron out bugs is driven far more aggressively than that of a faceless brand who are just meeting SLAs.
Some generalisations above, but my observations of software developers away from the remapping scene.
Just a thought , when EcuTek users/mappers state that EcuTek has more source for a back up if smtn goes wrong , how do they know that as the Ecutek mappers can't use OS by the agreement ???
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From: Notts
ecutek is a mapping software, if the software is used for mapping the company that develops the software will get invovled.
opesource is just that, any tom dick or harry can download it and claim to be a mapper, also find some of the OS progs are in fact hacked/modified vesions of earlier ecutek software
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