strange problem.. Wont turn over with key
03 November 2009, 11:53 AM
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strange problem.. Wont turn over with key
hi guys
My 99 wrx engine wont start. After doing some work to it, the time for a restart was not very exciting. What it does- turn the key, cluster lights all good, clock, oil lamp, comes on. Fuel pump primes ok. Turn to start and it does nothing, all cluster lights go out, and the throttle position mechnism starts making a noise. It only makes this noise when in the start position, otherwise silent. Its also warm after doing it a few times.
Fuses are good, battery is 100%, Ignition barrel good, Earths are good, car will crank over if ignition system is bypassed after starter wire. ie +12v direct.
Any ideas what could be causing this strange problem?
My 99 wrx engine wont start. After doing some work to it, the time for a restart was not very exciting. What it does- turn the key, cluster lights all good, clock, oil lamp, comes on. Fuel pump primes ok. Turn to start and it does nothing, all cluster lights go out, and the throttle position mechnism starts making a noise. It only makes this noise when in the start position, otherwise silent. Its also warm after doing it a few times.
Fuses are good, battery is 100%, Ignition barrel good, Earths are good, car will crank over if ignition system is bypassed after starter wire. ie +12v direct.
Any ideas what could be causing this strange problem?
03 November 2009, 06:36 PM
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Give us a bit of a clue an let us know what work youve done on it? you definatly have the starter excitor wire on the stater and not the throttle mechinism in some odd way? Or its not got trapped somewhere and got a dead short through the excitor wire?
03 November 2009, 11:48 PM
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Work wise its been all put into a different shell. But not choppped up or anything, just swapped over. And the starter wire is definately connected, to the right place.
05 November 2009, 08:59 AM
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No mate straight 10 gauge cable from + to starter. Earth route through body as per normal, back through - to battery. So that pretty much rules out the starter having a bad earth. But there are earths all over place? could another one in the ignition area or something be causing this?
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06 November 2009, 10:21 AM
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no it doesnt have an alarm at all. Just straight Japanese loom and ecu. I think this could be the problem, that its a japanese STI Main harness going to an Audm normal WRX harness. Just an idea, but a big clue is that when the ignition lights come on, all i get is oil lamp, ABS lamp, and low fuel lamp. No handbrake, No Check engine, Nothing else. Although i cant figure out what this clue is pointing to lol. Thanks
06 November 2009, 12:49 PM
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Well it certainly sounds like a harness problem with those missing warning lamps... The strange thing is, that the one thing that doesn't change between models is the way in which the starting circuit works.
Unlike most other circuits on the vehicle, the Starter Motor circuit is a dedicated and very simple one.
The ign switch has a 12v feed into it, and from there it has a wire that goes directly to the starter motor (this supplies it with 12v when the key is turned to the start position) The starter wire does not go through any relays or modules & no other circuits are connected to it which could interfere with this signal. (Unless you have an automatic gearbox fitted!)
Logic dictates that you either have a problem with your ign switch or have a block connector that is not latched correctly (or even a broken wire)... I would be tempted by the "block connector not latched correctly" or even disconnected, as this would also explain your lack of certain warning lights.
I would get your volt meter out and start with a check at the ign switch end of things to see if you have a 12v out signal when you turn it to the start position, if you have the 12v at this point then it’s time to start following the wire and checking each block connector it goes through for continuity until you find the problem.
Unlike most other circuits on the vehicle, the Starter Motor circuit is a dedicated and very simple one.
The ign switch has a 12v feed into it, and from there it has a wire that goes directly to the starter motor (this supplies it with 12v when the key is turned to the start position) The starter wire does not go through any relays or modules & no other circuits are connected to it which could interfere with this signal. (Unless you have an automatic gearbox fitted!)
Logic dictates that you either have a problem with your ign switch or have a block connector that is not latched correctly (or even a broken wire)... I would be tempted by the "block connector not latched correctly" or even disconnected, as this would also explain your lack of certain warning lights.
I would get your volt meter out and start with a check at the ign switch end of things to see if you have a 12v out signal when you turn it to the start position, if you have the 12v at this point then it’s time to start following the wire and checking each block connector it goes through for continuity until you find the problem.
08 November 2009, 12:48 AM
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Well it certainly sounds like a harness problem with those missing warning lamps... The strange thing is, that the one thing that doesn't change between models is the way in which the starting circuit works.
Unlike most other circuits on the vehicle, the Starter Motor circuit is a dedicated and very simple one.
The ign switch has a 12v feed into it, and from there it has a wire that goes directly to the starter motor (this supplies it with 12v when the key is turned to the start position) The starter wire does not go through any relays or modules & no other circuits are connected to it which could interfere with this signal. (Unless you have an automatic gearbox fitted!)
Logic dictates that you either have a problem with your ign switch or have a block connector that is not latched correctly (or even a broken wire)... I would be tempted by the "block connector not latched correctly" or even disconnected, as this would also explain your lack of certain warning lights.
I would get your volt meter out and start with a check at the ign switch end of things to see if you have a 12v out signal when you turn it to the start position, if you have the 12v at this point then it’s time to start following the wire and checking each block connector it goes through for continuity until you find the problem.
Unlike most other circuits on the vehicle, the Starter Motor circuit is a dedicated and very simple one.
The ign switch has a 12v feed into it, and from there it has a wire that goes directly to the starter motor (this supplies it with 12v when the key is turned to the start position) The starter wire does not go through any relays or modules & no other circuits are connected to it which could interfere with this signal. (Unless you have an automatic gearbox fitted!)
Logic dictates that you either have a problem with your ign switch or have a block connector that is not latched correctly (or even a broken wire)... I would be tempted by the "block connector not latched correctly" or even disconnected, as this would also explain your lack of certain warning lights.
I would get your volt meter out and start with a check at the ign switch end of things to see if you have a 12v out signal when you turn it to the start position, if you have the 12v at this point then it’s time to start following the wire and checking each block connector it goes through for continuity until you find the problem.
12 November 2009, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Splitpin
All of what follows is written with the caveat that I've never had my hands on an Aus market Impreza - so proceed on that basis! However, if the applied model code of these cars is GC8*K8D, (*=model year) that's the same as the UK market car - so, you'd hope that what applies there will apply to you. Anyway...
Originally Posted by NcarN8
But it doesnt. Cluster lights up. but as soon as key is pushed to start cluster lights die and the iacv starts whirring and getting warm?? no crank over at all.
So what im wondering is, do you have acces to the engine connector pinouts for the JDM STI v5? I cant seem to find this precise one, just a bunch of other crap. Or any ideas lol?!?!
On an "immobiliser aware" ECU (eg AExxx), the fuel pump relay control line goes to B134 pin 1. On a "no immobiliser" ECU (AFxxx series) it goes to B134 pin 21.
Meanwhile on the immobiliser ECUs, control systems ground goes to B136 pins 1 and 18. Non-immobiliser ECUs the lines go to B136 21 and 18.
As you probably already know, the crank sensor signal line goes to B136 pin 6 on an immobiliser ECU, pin 5 on a non-immobiliser - with the cam sensor signal doing the opposite.
Incidentally, when you first turn the ignition on, do you hear the fuel pump prime, or does the ISCV go nuts for a couple of seconds and then quiet down?
Also, can you get the CEL to respond to connecting the black plugs, and if so does it flash any error codes?
Hope this moves things forward. Feel free to quote and respond to this on your thread if you want - probably better that way as it allows others to chip in. Stick with it!
I am not using the AUDM computer, the ECU i have is Supposed to be JDM v5/V6 STI. The ecu codes are A18-000 22611 AF040. BIG "J2"
With this ecu in, it primes the fuel pump as normal, but wont crank or fire.
If i fit the AUDM ecu, it doesnt prime the pump, so that corresponds with what you mentioned regarding the AUDM ecu being aware of the immob, and its not getting a signal due to my loom being non immob STI. I havent swapped pins/wires because i fugured it would be easier to at least get it going with the STI one, then have a working platform to continue with.
As for codes, there is no check engine light whatsoever. None at ignition time, nor during cranking. Have rechecked my plug connections and had them wrong, now they are right again i have gained h/brake and airbag lights with ignition on. But still no start or C/Engine.
Same result if i connect read connectors, nothing.
The ecu is getting power and has continuity to earth, it is priming the fuel pump at the right time. But that is about it.
The IACV noise has changed now, im thinking it is ****ting itself slowly. It was a kind of whir, and getting warm. Im thinking it is getting voltage it doesnt like/want or something like that.
So the loom i am using came from a halfcut, i just used the complete loom and ecu. Plugged this into the AU 99 wrx EJ205. Thats when the problems started.
the AUDM halfcut ran fine with AUDM immobiliser loom and ecu.
The halfcut worked fine with STI engine and STI loom and ecu.
So i had a working engine + Working loom and ECU = NOT WORKING! WTF.
Thats why i though the engine pin outs could be the culprit but i think you are right, they are generic and the change happens at the ecu terminals.
So, short of buying yet another loom and ecu, what can i do lol???
A thousand million and 5 points to anyone with a good suggestion?!?
12 November 2009, 12:23 PM
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It ain't good til it's fixed! 
It is. AF040=STi5, so that checks out.
Okay. Before we go any further, even if you get it running, the WRX engine ain't gonna run right with the AF040 code controlling it due to the map incompatibility. That shouldn't be the cause of your non-running problem - but are you already working on the basis that you'll need a remap once you do get it running?
Yeah, it isn't priming because, on that ECU, the fuel pump control wire is going into the wrong pin. What's the part number of the AUDM ECU, by the way?
Yes that's probably the best way forward for now - although as mentioned above once you do get it working you're going to be faced with it running anything but right. If you weren't figuring that into the long term plan, swapping in the AUDM loom and ECU might be a better bet, if that's an option?
Sounds like either they're still not right, or there may be a fault/short or similar in the loom somewhere. Could also be that the bulb behind the CEL has gone - have you ruled this out?
Incidentally what instrument pack are you using - the STi or AUDM one?
You may well be right. Disconnect it for the time being. If nothing else that will stop any damage getting worse. Needing to worry about uncontrolled idle speed would be a step forward from where you are!
What were you aiming to achieve via this swap? On the face of it, reconnecting the AUDM EJ205 engine to the correct ECU and (immobiliser) loom would appear to offer the best route forward because at least then you know that it used to work, and that once any electrical problems are solved, you have the right ECU controlling the right engine. I take it there's a reason why this isn't a possible way forward?
I am not using the AUDM computer, the ECU i have is Supposed to be JDM v5/V6 STI. The ecu codes are A18-000 22611 AF040. BIG "J2"
With this ecu in, it primes the fuel pump as normal, but wont crank or fire.
If i fit the AUDM ecu, it doesnt prime the pump, so that corresponds with what you mentioned regarding the AUDM ecu being aware of the immob, and its not getting a signal due to my loom being non immob STI.
I havent swapped pins/wires because i fugured it would be easier to at least get it going with the STI one, then have a working platform to continue with.
As for codes, there is no check engine light whatsoever. None at ignition time, nor during cranking. Have rechecked my plug connections and had them wrong, now they are right again i have gained h/brake and airbag lights with ignition on. But still no start or C/Engine.
Incidentally what instrument pack are you using - the STi or AUDM one?
The IACV noise has changed now, im thinking it is ****ting itself slowly. It was a kind of whir, and getting warm. Im thinking it is getting voltage it doesnt like/want or something like that.
So the loom i am using came from a halfcut, i just used the complete loom and ecu. Plugged this into the AU 99 wrx EJ205. Thats when the problems started.
Last edited by Splitpin; 12 November 2009 at 12:26 PM.
12 November 2009, 12:29 PM
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13 November 2009, 01:04 AM
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It ain't good til it's fixed!
It is. AF040=STi5, so that checks out.
Okay. Before we go any further, even if you get it running, the WRX engine ain't gonna run right with the AF040 code controlling it due to the map incompatibility. That shouldn't be the cause of your non-running problem - but are you already working on the basis that you'll need a remap once you do get it running?
Yeah, it isn't priming because, on that ECU, the fuel pump control wire is going into the wrong pin. What's the part number of the AUDM ECU, by the way?
Yes that's probably the best way forward for now - although as mentioned above once you do get it working you're going to be faced with it running anything but right. If you weren't figuring that into the long term plan, swapping in the AUDM loom and ECU might be a better bet, if that's an option?
Sounds like either they're still not right, or there may be a fault/short or similar in the loom somewhere. Could also be that the bulb behind the CEL has gone - have you ruled this out?
Incidentally what instrument pack are you using - the STi or AUDM one?
You may well be right. Disconnect it for the time being. If nothing else that will stop any damage getting worse. Needing to worry about uncontrolled idle speed would be a step forward from where you are!
What were you aiming to achieve via this swap? On the face of it, reconnecting the AUDM EJ205 engine to the correct ECU and (immobiliser) loom would appear to offer the best route forward because at least then you know that it used to work, and that once any electrical problems are solved, you have the right ECU controlling the right engine. I take it there's a reason why this isn't a possible way forward?
It is. AF040=STi5, so that checks out.
Okay. Before we go any further, even if you get it running, the WRX engine ain't gonna run right with the AF040 code controlling it due to the map incompatibility. That shouldn't be the cause of your non-running problem - but are you already working on the basis that you'll need a remap once you do get it running?
Yeah, it isn't priming because, on that ECU, the fuel pump control wire is going into the wrong pin. What's the part number of the AUDM ECU, by the way?
Yes that's probably the best way forward for now - although as mentioned above once you do get it working you're going to be faced with it running anything but right. If you weren't figuring that into the long term plan, swapping in the AUDM loom and ECU might be a better bet, if that's an option?
Sounds like either they're still not right, or there may be a fault/short or similar in the loom somewhere. Could also be that the bulb behind the CEL has gone - have you ruled this out?
Incidentally what instrument pack are you using - the STi or AUDM one?
You may well be right. Disconnect it for the time being. If nothing else that will stop any damage getting worse. Needing to worry about uncontrolled idle speed would be a step forward from where you are!
What were you aiming to achieve via this swap? On the face of it, reconnecting the AUDM EJ205 engine to the correct ECU and (immobiliser) loom would appear to offer the best route forward because at least then you know that it used to work, and that once any electrical problems are solved, you have the right ECU controlling the right engine. I take it there's a reason why this isn't a possible way forward?
Yes when it goes, will be swapping the pins over and running normal audm ecu, until i have fitted the exhaust, cams and intercooler, so can remap to best suit mods.
AUDM ecu codes are - 22611 AE800 A18-000 D97.
I cant use the audm loom because, to be honest i butchered it. Attempted a splice procedure to insert just the engine management wires with old style body plugs to make a hybrid 1991/1999 loom but the immobiliser threw me and its now in the bin. So just purchased the closest loom to it, the V5 STI and matching ecu, and threw that it.
The instrument cluster i am using is the audm one, it plugged striaght into the japanese loom, with the audm wiring cords. Someone has mentioned that if you try and use the sti wiring cords on the audm cluster it can blow them, anyone know if this is true, and could it have happened here?
If the check engine light is blown, how can i test that? dissasemble the whole thing?
How bad do you think it will run? coughing and farting around, bad idle etc, or just not make enough power? I hoped it would go ok lol.
Cheers
13 November 2009, 01:51 AM
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The problem you have is that, even if you get it all working, the moment you plug the AE800 in, it won't allow the engine to run because you won't have the immobiliser unit connected. And, even if you have the black box, aerial on the ignition lock and whatever else to hand, I don't think the loom you have will allow you to connect them.
cant use the audm loom because, to be honest i butchered it.
The instrument cluster i am using is the audm one, it plugged striaght into the japanese loom, with the audm wiring cords. Someone has mentioned that if you try and use the sti wiring cords on the audm cluster it can blow them, anyone know if this is true, and could it have happened here?
If the check engine light is blown, how can i test that? dissasemble the whole thing?
While you're at it, pull the plastic cover off the back of the instrument panel PCB, and follow the track for the CEL up to the green connector in the corner (you should find that it leads up to pin 18 of the connector nearest the right of the car, as you sit in the drivers seat looking at the instruments). On the assumption that it does, run a continuity test on the matching wire in the connector, and, at the other end, pin 28 of B134 (the black ECU plug). If you don't get a circuit, you know something's up with the loom - so you need to work through the cables until you find out where on the ECU plugs the CEL is coming out.
If that is all as it should be, get some long test leads and check continuity between the ISCV connector under the bonnet and the ECU plugs. Pin 1 on the ISCV plug should run to B134p5. Pins 2 and 5 on the ISCV plug should have +12v in them when the ignition is switched on. Pin 3 on the ISCV should go to B134p6. Pin 4 ISCV to B134p14 and pin 6 ISCV to B134p15.
If all of that checks out, then, well, let us know!
How bad do you think it will run? coughing and farting around, bad idle etc, or just not make enough power? I hoped it would go ok lol.
Your best bet, given the lack of an immobiliser compatible loom, would be getting it idling on the JDM ECU, fit the other bits and then an immediate remap using JDM base code. But, that's all academic until you get it running.
13 November 2009, 08:54 AM
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That ain't going to happen, unless the looms you have over there are fundamentally different in design to the ones I'm used to. You can't simply drop an AU/EUDM ECU onto an STi loom and expect it to run - even if you make the necessary changes to the pin connector configuration.
The problem you have is that, even if you get it all working, the moment you plug the AE800 in, it won't allow the engine to run because you won't have the immobiliser unit connected. And, even if you have the black box, aerial on the ignition lock and whatever else to hand, I don't think the loom you have will allow you to connect them.
Oops. What's left of that that you know is good?
Don't know enough to answer that myself, but from what you've said so far, what you have sounds exactly as per a UK spec car so hopefully someone will know.
Nah just take the bulb holder out the back of the instrument pack and test it!
While you're at it, pull the plastic cover off the back of the instrument panel PCB, and follow the track for the CEL up to the green connector in the corner (you should find that it leads up to pin 18 of the connector nearest the right of the car, as you sit in the drivers seat looking at the instruments). On the assumption that it does, run a continuity test on the matching wire in the connector, and, at the other end, pin 28 of B134 (the black ECU plug). If you don't get a circuit, you know something's up with the loom - so you need to work through the cables until you find out where on the ECU plugs the CEL is coming out.
If that is all as it should be, get some long test leads and check continuity between the ISCV connector under the bonnet and the ECU plugs. Pin 1 on the ISCV plug should run to B134p5. Pins 2 and 5 on the ISCV plug should have +12v in them when the ignition is switched on. Pin 3 on the ISCV should go to B134p6. Pin 4 ISCV to B134p14 and pin 6 ISCV to B134p15.
If all of that checks out, then, well, let us know!
I don't know how bad it would be - your best bet would be to ask someone like Bob Rawle or JGM, but knowing how different the UKDM and STi maps are, I very much doubt it would be good enough to qualify as okay. Almost everything, from MAF scaling to main fuel, boost targt to wastegate duty are different. It'll probably idle, but anything over and above that is anybody's guess. Severe risk of it blowing up, which would be a drag after all the work getting it running.
Your best bet, given the lack of an immobiliser compatible loom, would be getting it idling on the JDM ECU, fit the other bits and then an immediate remap using JDM base code. But, that's all academic until you get it running.
The problem you have is that, even if you get it all working, the moment you plug the AE800 in, it won't allow the engine to run because you won't have the immobiliser unit connected. And, even if you have the black box, aerial on the ignition lock and whatever else to hand, I don't think the loom you have will allow you to connect them.
Oops. What's left of that that you know is good?
Don't know enough to answer that myself, but from what you've said so far, what you have sounds exactly as per a UK spec car so hopefully someone will know.
Nah just take the bulb holder out the back of the instrument pack and test it!
While you're at it, pull the plastic cover off the back of the instrument panel PCB, and follow the track for the CEL up to the green connector in the corner (you should find that it leads up to pin 18 of the connector nearest the right of the car, as you sit in the drivers seat looking at the instruments). On the assumption that it does, run a continuity test on the matching wire in the connector, and, at the other end, pin 28 of B134 (the black ECU plug). If you don't get a circuit, you know something's up with the loom - so you need to work through the cables until you find out where on the ECU plugs the CEL is coming out.
If that is all as it should be, get some long test leads and check continuity between the ISCV connector under the bonnet and the ECU plugs. Pin 1 on the ISCV plug should run to B134p5. Pins 2 and 5 on the ISCV plug should have +12v in them when the ignition is switched on. Pin 3 on the ISCV should go to B134p6. Pin 4 ISCV to B134p14 and pin 6 ISCV to B134p15.
If all of that checks out, then, well, let us know!
I don't know how bad it would be - your best bet would be to ask someone like Bob Rawle or JGM, but knowing how different the UKDM and STi maps are, I very much doubt it would be good enough to qualify as okay. Almost everything, from MAF scaling to main fuel, boost targt to wastegate duty are different. It'll probably idle, but anything over and above that is anybody's guess. Severe risk of it blowing up, which would be a drag after all the work getting it running.
Your best bet, given the lack of an immobiliser compatible loom, would be getting it idling on the JDM ECU, fit the other bits and then an immediate remap using JDM base code. But, that's all academic until you get it running.
There was some continuity fails on the wires as well. Ruminated over a beer, and then a guy who is the local subaru parts supplier here dropped over and put 2 and 2 together.... v6 STI has a clutch switch which wont allow the continuity until the clutch is in. Bridged this connection and bingo!!
Pulled the back cover on cluster as suggested and the bulb was faulty - replace and now its throwing codes all over the shop.
I cant beleive how simple it is yet its something i had absolutely no idea about lol!!
So thanks again for the help guys. If you happen to be in Aus give me a message theres some beers in it!!
Cheers
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