Which front mount ........
29 May 2009, 11:14 PM
#2
29 May 2009, 11:56 PM
#4
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It's one of the best for the money. But not one of the best I'd say.
If you look at the more expensive ones, they are better quality, have lots of supports for the pipe work (Hybrid has none) etc.
I'm running a Hybrid, don't get me wrong. But if you have the money and don't mind spending it.....do!
If you look at the more expensive ones, they are better quality, have lots of supports for the pipe work (Hybrid has none) etc.
I'm running a Hybrid, don't get me wrong. But if you have the money and don't mind spending it.....do!
30 May 2009, 09:41 AM
#6
Yep...
Hybrid GT Spec supplied and/or fitted by Harvey in Darlington.
Or a Hyperflow supplied and/or fitted by ZEN in Wellingborough.
I think, when all said and done, there's not much difference between the two ICs re. performance, price, etc...
If you get it fitted by the supplier, then I suspect the clincher will be your location, relative to either...
Hybrid GT Spec supplied and/or fitted by Harvey in Darlington.
Or a Hyperflow supplied and/or fitted by ZEN in Wellingborough.
I think, when all said and done, there's not much difference between the two ICs re. performance, price, etc...
If you get it fitted by the supplier, then I suspect the clincher will be your location, relative to either...
01 June 2009, 12:01 AM
#7
There is nothing wrong with the Hybrid providing it is fitted properly but if you have not fitted an FMIC before and this is your first attempt then your quality of fit may not be as good as that from someone who fits them professionally on a regular basis.
Our fitting charge inclusive of sundries is £180.
Previously Bob Rawle has commented that the ACTs on my Hybrid equipped cars are more stable and closer to ambient than the temperatures on my STi6 Wagon with APS FMIC. When the APS was fitted several years ago I had to buy five to get a price of £1200 each. The Hybrid Classic GT is currently £350 and the New Age £375.
A relatively cheap FMIC but not cheap in terms of quality and great value for money in terms of performance.
I am of course biased but this is an honest assessment.
Our fitting charge inclusive of sundries is £180.
Previously Bob Rawle has commented that the ACTs on my Hybrid equipped cars are more stable and closer to ambient than the temperatures on my STi6 Wagon with APS FMIC. When the APS was fitted several years ago I had to buy five to get a price of £1200 each. The Hybrid Classic GT is currently £350 and the New Age £375.
A relatively cheap FMIC but not cheap in terms of quality and great value for money in terms of performance.
I am of course biased but this is an honest assessment.
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01 June 2009, 05:44 AM
#9
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That's a fair point about fitting them day in day out to be honest.
I've fitted mine (with a lot of help from a friend), and was there when said friend was fitting his to. It took us 8 hours, and it is a decent job. Only thing we agreed on for more stability is that there should maybe be some brackets on the pipe work just to give some stability.
If you get Harvey's guys to fit yours, I'm sure it will be a better fit that doing it yourself!
I've fitted mine (with a lot of help from a friend), and was there when said friend was fitting his to. It took us 8 hours, and it is a decent job. Only thing we agreed on for more stability is that there should maybe be some brackets on the pipe work just to give some stability.
If you get Harvey's guys to fit yours, I'm sure it will be a better fit that doing it yourself!
01 June 2009, 09:16 PM
#11
.Maybe I should have made myself clearer on what I wanted ...... I want to get rid of my scoop
, and to do so, I need to go Front mount (not something I was really bothered about TBH ), I had been looking at the APS DR525 (in black), as they quote that it is not that laggy.Turbo lag was my main concern with going Front Mount.
That said, if the hybrid does the job and is not 'too' laggy, that may be the way to go.
And yes, I am fully aware that it will need re-mapping, this is something I always point out to others as well
02 June 2009, 02:12 AM
#12
as they quote that it is not that laggy.
Remember that long after it was pointed out to APS that the MAF sensor needed rescaled as a minimum after installing their inner wing located cold air kit for it to be safe, they still did not provide customers with a warning to that effect.
If you have a problem with lag on a front mount, either it is a crap front mount with a big pressure drop(which can be measured) or you should be asking your mapper to remap or change mapper.
Bob : Was that the advice you were giving when you were selling Hybrid FMICs?
02 June 2009, 08:04 AM
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Not everyone has a way of checking AFR. Fortunately it's something I picked up on.
02 June 2009, 11:40 PM
#16
There is nothing wrong with the Hybrid providing it is fitted properly but if you have not fitted an FMIC before and this is your first attempt then your quality of fit may not be as good as that from someone who fits them professionally on a regular basis.
Our fitting charge inclusive of sundries is £180.
Previously Bob Rawle has commented that the ACTs on my Hybrid equipped cars are more stable and closer to ambient than the temperatures on my STi6 Wagon with APS FMIC. When the APS was fitted several years ago I had to buy five to get a price of £1200 each. The Hybrid Classic GT is currently £350 and the New Age £375.
A relatively cheap FMIC but not cheap in terms of quality and great value for money in terms of performance.
I am of course biased but this is an honest assessment.
Our fitting charge inclusive of sundries is £180.
Previously Bob Rawle has commented that the ACTs on my Hybrid equipped cars are more stable and closer to ambient than the temperatures on my STi6 Wagon with APS FMIC. When the APS was fitted several years ago I had to buy five to get a price of £1200 each. The Hybrid Classic GT is currently £350 and the New Age £375.
A relatively cheap FMIC but not cheap in terms of quality and great value for money in terms of performance.
I am of course biased but this is an honest assessment.
Harvey,
the above intercooler, does that come Aluminium finish only, or also in Black ?
04 June 2009, 05:05 AM
#17
Nate : Aluminium self colour finish only.
There is nothing to stop you dust coating it with a black aerosol if you wish but it is not an option from Hybrid and not something I would do either.
Painting the core will reduce efficiency.
In my experience the black paint has to be touched up or "redusted" from time to time or it looks crap so in time the paint coat builds up, never mind the inconvenience of doing it.
Semper :
Bollocks. Utter bollocks.
Exactly correct and that is why the unsuspecting should be cautioned by the manufacturer of the product that at the very least they need to have their AFRs checked. In the same way that a responsible vendor of FMICs will advise the client that a remap is necessry/desirable when fitting an FMIC.
When I bought my APS CAK I was new to the Subaru scene. At that time the APS CAK was flavour of the month and the must have item. At that time it was not recognised that MAF rescaling or a remap were required after fitting one of these CAKs.
I picked up a piston in the bore because of this and it was quite some time after this that the cause was identified. It is common knowledge today, in part due to the efforts of Bob Rawle and to some extent myself but in 2002 this was not recognised and when APS were given the information soley for the purpose of assisting others, they denied there was a problem and did nothing.
Now as these kits were widely available to anyone and they were in vogue, a fair proportion of purchasers would not even have a clue about the implications of fitting one and that is why the kit should have carried a warning. What is common knowledge now was certainly not common knowledge seven years ago.
There is nothing to stop you dust coating it with a black aerosol if you wish but it is not an option from Hybrid and not something I would do either.
Painting the core will reduce efficiency.
In my experience the black paint has to be touched up or "redusted" from time to time or it looks crap so in time the paint coat builds up, never mind the inconvenience of doing it.
Semper :
Failure to check MAF measurements after some mapping can cause a car to run lean as well you know. Blaming APS for not stating it is a bit bizarre. Should be up to your mapper to check such things as a matter of course. Something I found out to my cost...
Not everyone has a way of checking AFR. Fortunately it's something I picked up on.
When I bought my APS CAK I was new to the Subaru scene. At that time the APS CAK was flavour of the month and the must have item. At that time it was not recognised that MAF rescaling or a remap were required after fitting one of these CAKs.
I picked up a piston in the bore because of this and it was quite some time after this that the cause was identified. It is common knowledge today, in part due to the efforts of Bob Rawle and to some extent myself but in 2002 this was not recognised and when APS were given the information soley for the purpose of assisting others, they denied there was a problem and did nothing.
Now as these kits were widely available to anyone and they were in vogue, a fair proportion of purchasers would not even have a clue about the implications of fitting one and that is why the kit should have carried a warning. What is common knowledge now was certainly not common knowledge seven years ago.
04 June 2009, 09:39 AM
#18
...When I bought my APS CAK I was new to the Subaru scene. At that time the APS CAK was flavour of the month and the must have item. At that time it was not recognised that MAF rescaling or a remap were required after fitting one of these CAKs.
I picked up a piston in the bore because of this and it was quite some time after this that the cause was identified. It is common knowledge today, in part due to the efforts of Bob Rawle and to some extent myself but in 2002 this was not recognised and when APS were given the information soley for the purpose of assisting others, they denied there was a problem and did nothing.
Now as these kits were widely available to anyone and they were in vogue, a fair proportion of purchasers would not even have a clue about the implications of fitting one and that is why the kit should have carried a warning. What is common knowledge now was certainly not common knowledge seven years ago.
I picked up a piston in the bore because of this and it was quite some time after this that the cause was identified. It is common knowledge today, in part due to the efforts of Bob Rawle and to some extent myself but in 2002 this was not recognised and when APS were given the information soley for the purpose of assisting others, they denied there was a problem and did nothing.
Now as these kits were widely available to anyone and they were in vogue, a fair proportion of purchasers would not even have a clue about the implications of fitting one and that is why the kit should have carried a warning. What is common knowledge now was certainly not common knowledge seven years ago.
As has also been mentioned, many customers wouldn't have a clue what AFR is, let alone going about checking/rectifying it.
05 June 2009, 01:35 AM
#19
Cheers Joz Mate. Common sense and some shrewd observations there.
It took a lot of time and effort to determine what had happened and although it is common knowledge now that if you fit a CAK you need to rescale the MAF sensor or remap, that was most certainly NOT recognised a few years ago, no matter how obvious it is now, with hind sight.
It took a lot of time and effort to determine what had happened and although it is common knowledge now that if you fit a CAK you need to rescale the MAF sensor or remap, that was most certainly NOT recognised a few years ago, no matter how obvious it is now, with hind sight.
Last edited by harvey; 05 June 2009 at 01:38 AM.
05 June 2009, 09:29 AM
#20
Nate - the Hybrid kit, imho, is the one no-brainer piece of kit. We can all argue all day about the best for this and that. But for a fmic, there is no other logical choice in terms of quality, price and performance.
Harvey is one of SN's finest and would recommend using him when possible. My only regret is that I live so far away from him...
However, my recent experiences have taught me that logistics aren't always the most important thing when spending the money. Get it done right...
Good luck
Harvey is one of SN's finest and would recommend using him when possible. My only regret is that I live so far away from him...
However, my recent experiences have taught me that logistics aren't always the most important thing when spending the money. Get it done right...
Good luck
05 June 2009, 04:34 PM
#22
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Nate - the Hybrid kit, imho, is the one no-brainer piece of kit. We can all argue all day about the best for this and that. But for a fmic, there is no other logical choice in terms of quality, price and performance.
Harvey is one of SN's finest and would recommend using him when possible. My only regret is that I live so far away from him...
However, my recent experiences have taught me that logistics aren't always the most important thing when spending the money. Get it done right...
Good luck
Harvey is one of SN's finest and would recommend using him when possible. My only regret is that I live so far away from him...
However, my recent experiences have taught me that logistics aren't always the most important thing when spending the money. Get it done right...
Good luck
06 June 2009, 01:07 PM
#24
I'd just like to add I was talking ****e re Hyperflow prices compared to Hybrid prices. Consider this...
Hybrid pros - cheap, great quality; excellent performance (for the price)
Hybrid cons - slight fettling to fit; end tanks show through bumper maw
Hyperflow pros - top notch quality; excellent fit; excellent performance; end tanks hidden
Hyperflow cons - expensive (compared to Hybrid and other FMIC options)
Bottom line... the Hybrid offers circa 90% the performance of the Hyperflow, but is about 39% price of the Hyperflow.
OP, the choice is down to you...
EDIT: Sorry Nate, you have a Bugeye WRX, right? In that case, I think I'm right in saying that the Hybrid fits the New Age cars all but perfect - so another tick in the Hybrid's favour...
Hybrid pros - cheap, great quality; excellent performance (for the price)
Hybrid cons - slight fettling to fit; end tanks show through bumper maw
Hyperflow pros - top notch quality; excellent fit; excellent performance; end tanks hidden
Hyperflow cons - expensive (compared to Hybrid and other FMIC options)
Bottom line... the Hybrid offers circa 90% the performance of the Hyperflow, but is about 39% price of the Hyperflow.
OP, the choice is down to you...
EDIT: Sorry Nate, you have a Bugeye WRX, right? In that case, I think I'm right in saying that the Hybrid fits the New Age cars all but perfect - so another tick in the Hybrid's favour...
Last edited by joz8968; 06 June 2009 at 01:11 PM.
06 June 2009, 01:17 PM
#25
Nate - the Hybrid kit, imho, is the one no-brainer piece of kit. We can all argue all day about the best for this and that. But for a fmic, there is no other logical choice in terms of quality, price and performance.
Harvey is one of SN's finest and would recommend using him when possible. My only regret is that I live so far away from him...
However, my recent experiences have taught me that logistics aren't always the most important thing when spending the money. Get it done right...
Good luck
Harvey is one of SN's finest and would recommend using him when possible. My only regret is that I live so far away from him...
However, my recent experiences have taught me that logistics aren't always the most important thing when spending the money. Get it done right...
Good luck
08 June 2009, 02:22 PM
#26
Joz : I see you are of the opinion that the Hyperflow TMIC will out perform the Hybrid.
From all the experimenting and all the experience I have with top mount and front mount intercoolers I have no reason to believe that the Hyperflow top mount will out perform a Hybrid front mount and the same is true for the Hyperflow front mount. I have no reason to believe their front mount can produce more power than the Hybrid. Remember the current Hybrid core is bigger than necessary but tube and fin and this has far better flow and less pressure drop than any bar and plate.
I know I am biased in that I am the Hybrid UK main dealer but if we can devise tests that are meaningful for the Hybrid against ANY top mount or front mount on cars that are typically fitted with Hybrid FMICs I am prepared to put up a front mount intercooler kit, vehicle and fitting time towards any testing which can be independently observed. We can also include air charge temperature guages, thermal temperature monitoring equipment and probably other monitoring equipment too relevant to determining the most cost effective efficient performing system.
There is no doubt in my mind that the performance and value for money conclusion will be the Hybrid.
From all the experimenting and all the experience I have with top mount and front mount intercoolers I have no reason to believe that the Hyperflow top mount will out perform a Hybrid front mount and the same is true for the Hyperflow front mount. I have no reason to believe their front mount can produce more power than the Hybrid. Remember the current Hybrid core is bigger than necessary but tube and fin and this has far better flow and less pressure drop than any bar and plate.
I know I am biased in that I am the Hybrid UK main dealer but if we can devise tests that are meaningful for the Hybrid against ANY top mount or front mount on cars that are typically fitted with Hybrid FMICs I am prepared to put up a front mount intercooler kit, vehicle and fitting time towards any testing which can be independently observed. We can also include air charge temperature guages, thermal temperature monitoring equipment and probably other monitoring equipment too relevant to determining the most cost effective efficient performing system.
There is no doubt in my mind that the performance and value for money conclusion will be the Hybrid.
08 June 2009, 02:44 PM
#27
Joz : I see you are of the opinion that the Hyperflow TMIC will out perform the Hybrid.
From all the experimenting and all the experience I have with top mount and front mount intercoolers I have no reason to believe that the Hyperflow top mount will out perform a Hybrid front mount and the same is true for the Hyperflow front mount. I have no reason to believe their front mount can produce more power than the Hybrid. Remember the current Hybrid core is bigger than necessary but tube and fin and this has far better flow and less pressure drop than any bar and plate.
I know I am biased in that I am the Hybrid UK main dealer but if we can devise tests that are meaningful for the Hybrid against ANY top mount or front mount on cars that are typically fitted with Hybrid FMICs I am prepared to put up a front mount intercooler kit, vehicle and fitting time towards any testing which can be independently observed. We can also include air charge temperature guages, thermal temperature monitoring equipment and probably other monitoring equipment too relevant to determining the most cost effective efficient performing system.
There is no doubt in my mind that the performance and value for money conclusion will be the Hybrid.
From all the experimenting and all the experience I have with top mount and front mount intercoolers I have no reason to believe that the Hyperflow top mount will out perform a Hybrid front mount and the same is true for the Hyperflow front mount. I have no reason to believe their front mount can produce more power than the Hybrid. Remember the current Hybrid core is bigger than necessary but tube and fin and this has far better flow and less pressure drop than any bar and plate.
I know I am biased in that I am the Hybrid UK main dealer but if we can devise tests that are meaningful for the Hybrid against ANY top mount or front mount on cars that are typically fitted with Hybrid FMICs I am prepared to put up a front mount intercooler kit, vehicle and fitting time towards any testing which can be independently observed. We can also include air charge temperature guages, thermal temperature monitoring equipment and probably other monitoring equipment too relevant to determining the most cost effective efficient performing system.
There is no doubt in my mind that the performance and value for money conclusion will be the Hybrid.
In any case, I agree with you and rossi_p anyway!... Everything weighed up, the Hybrid is indeed a colossal "no-brainer", IMHO.
Last edited by joz8968; 08 June 2009 at 08:59 PM.
09 June 2009, 08:26 AM
#28
Hi Joz : I realise you are a Hybrid fan and I only questioned what you said as I have no evidence that any TMIC I have seen will outperform the Hybrid. In terms of front mounts I cannot see a bar and plate having a better flow than a tube and fin and as the Hybrid (and almost every other FMIC ON A SUBARU) is far bigger than it needs to be for the heat required to dissipate, then thermal performance is excellent and certainly better than that of the APS fitted to one of my cars. (Two currently have Hybrid FMICs, Project car with Hybrid but not registered on road yet, one with an APS FMIC, cost of kit was £1240, STi UK, under 350 bhp and least powerful of the cars with Subaru top mount.
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