Top Mount upgrade?
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Scooby Regular
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From: edinburgh
Top Mount upgrade?
Hi guys was looking for advice on upgrading my top mount on my sti v3. Was looking at the autobahn top mounts on flat4 online website, Does any one have one or experienced won? Cheers lee
Would be pretty cheap as well. You can pick the WRX ones up pretty cheap as most newage WRX owners upgrade to the STI top mount so plenty around. Depends on budget really.
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From: East coast.
To put it in very simple terms IMHO on a classic, if you want value for money and performance, fit a cheap FMIC. STi8 TMICs (it would be pointless to fit any lesser top mount) can be fitted to classics, but when you tot up the fact that they're often the same price as a whole FMIC kit even though second hand, you still have to start cutting stuff and repositioning things, you need to fit a properly sized STi8 scoop and undertray etc etc...it looks to me that you'd be spending at least twice as much money if not more on a top mount conversion.
I run a Hyperflow TMIC on my 99 classic and it was pretty pricey (£550). It isn't simply a drop on job either. It is a very deep intecooler compared with the standard classic ones. I had to dremel a fair amount off the undertray as the hyperflow was so tall. I also had to cut out the 2 sides and the front of the undertray a bit to give a perfect fit.
Although you introduce the LAG question when you go front mount, I have to agree and say that you need to consider it as an alternative to your plans.
A pic showing the depth of the Hyperflow:
More pics here is you feel the need:
Index of /clanftp/nick/scoobs/fluffy/tmic
Cheers,
Nick.
Although you introduce the LAG question when you go front mount, I have to agree and say that you need to consider it as an alternative to your plans.
A pic showing the depth of the Hyperflow:
More pics here is you feel the need:
Index of /clanftp/nick/scoobs/fluffy/tmic
Cheers,
Nick
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Very interesting.
I think a lot of crap has been talked by so called experts as to the merits of TMICs over FMICs. Without measuring and logging ambient temperature and air charge temperature I don't see how you can form a valid opinion.
For some time I have been measuring ambient and ACT temperatures on an APS front mount intercooler equipped STi 6 Wagon somewhere about 600 bhp, a 95 WRX Wagon 422 bhp with Hybrid Front Mount Intercooler and STi 3 Wagon with OE TMIC and around 335 bhp.
On the OE intercooler the STi 3 was reaching charge temperatures of around 60 deg. C in the sprint to 100 mph and off the clock at 70 deg.C by 120 mph.
The performance of both the FMICs referred to above were very similar, running around ambient or 2 degrees over ambient in normal road use, rarely reaching 6 deg. over ambient when worked hard on the road and typically 12 degrees over ambient on track.
All these figures relate to the car while moving.
On the STi 3 Wagon I experimented with an STi 7 scoop which made little difference and certainly not enough to warrant the expense.
I then tried an STi 8 scoop and it was obvious it was working at a lower speed, say 45 mph, whereas the STi 3 scoop probably didn't work until 55 or 60 mph. The improvement from the STi 8 scoop was noticable but it did not stop ACT of 60-70 degrees and then off the clock and what was very worrying was how easily these temperatures were achieved.
I then obtained a New Age STi TMIC. Originally I envisaged this would take a day to fit but it extended into three days work. During this time I could easily have fitted 3 FMICs and had a day left over.
I was going to relocate the clutch reservoir but ended up leaving it in place because there was no where to put it. Filling the clutch reservoir now involves removing the TMIC. The ICVS was relocated to the passenger side of the new TMIC. I had intended to use the STi 8 BOV but that was too tall for the bonnet and the STi 3 BOV was reused, located under the new TMIC.
The results were very disappointing without the under bonnet tray from the STi 8. I have since made my own under bonnet tray as the STi 8 tray was on loan.
Similarly, the results with the OE STi 3 or STi 7 scoop left a lot to be desired.
With the STi 8 scoop and under bonnet tray the results were better than expected but not as good as those achieved from an FMIC especially taking into account that both FMIC equipped cars are operating at 100-200 plus bhp above the STi 3 output.
The cost of this experiment has been far in excess of the cost of a good FMIC kit and that excludes the time element which for the TMIC was considerable. I may well fit an FMIC at a later stage or before next Summer.
Currently I have to resolve a couple of issues with the TMIC, particularly the banging of the alloy feed pipes and end tank which is particularly irksome and finding a solution is hampered by lack of space and general headroom to the bonnet.
I also copied the following from an Autospeed article and I believe that if an FMIC installation adds significantly to the lag, the FMIC kit is of poor design or the car has not been properly remapped for the FMIC.
I think a lot of crap has been talked by so called experts as to the merits of TMICs over FMICs. Without measuring and logging ambient temperature and air charge temperature I don't see how you can form a valid opinion.
For some time I have been measuring ambient and ACT temperatures on an APS front mount intercooler equipped STi 6 Wagon somewhere about 600 bhp, a 95 WRX Wagon 422 bhp with Hybrid Front Mount Intercooler and STi 3 Wagon with OE TMIC and around 335 bhp.
On the OE intercooler the STi 3 was reaching charge temperatures of around 60 deg. C in the sprint to 100 mph and off the clock at 70 deg.C by 120 mph.
The performance of both the FMICs referred to above were very similar, running around ambient or 2 degrees over ambient in normal road use, rarely reaching 6 deg. over ambient when worked hard on the road and typically 12 degrees over ambient on track.
All these figures relate to the car while moving.
On the STi 3 Wagon I experimented with an STi 7 scoop which made little difference and certainly not enough to warrant the expense.
I then tried an STi 8 scoop and it was obvious it was working at a lower speed, say 45 mph, whereas the STi 3 scoop probably didn't work until 55 or 60 mph. The improvement from the STi 8 scoop was noticable but it did not stop ACT of 60-70 degrees and then off the clock and what was very worrying was how easily these temperatures were achieved.
I then obtained a New Age STi TMIC. Originally I envisaged this would take a day to fit but it extended into three days work. During this time I could easily have fitted 3 FMICs and had a day left over.
I was going to relocate the clutch reservoir but ended up leaving it in place because there was no where to put it. Filling the clutch reservoir now involves removing the TMIC. The ICVS was relocated to the passenger side of the new TMIC. I had intended to use the STi 8 BOV but that was too tall for the bonnet and the STi 3 BOV was reused, located under the new TMIC.
The results were very disappointing without the under bonnet tray from the STi 8. I have since made my own under bonnet tray as the STi 8 tray was on loan.
Similarly, the results with the OE STi 3 or STi 7 scoop left a lot to be desired.
With the STi 8 scoop and under bonnet tray the results were better than expected but not as good as those achieved from an FMIC especially taking into account that both FMIC equipped cars are operating at 100-200 plus bhp above the STi 3 output.
The cost of this experiment has been far in excess of the cost of a good FMIC kit and that excludes the time element which for the TMIC was considerable. I may well fit an FMIC at a later stage or before next Summer.
Currently I have to resolve a couple of issues with the TMIC, particularly the banging of the alloy feed pipes and end tank which is particularly irksome and finding a solution is hampered by lack of space and general headroom to the bonnet.
I also copied the following from an Autospeed article and I believe that if an FMIC installation adds significantly to the lag, the FMIC kit is of poor design or the car has not been properly remapped for the FMIC.
Some people believe that if they fit a very big intercooler with large ducts, the volume of charge air within it will unduly slow throttle response. Their concern is unjustified however - throttle response problems (for example, turbo lag) are largely the result of other factors within the forced induction system, not the volume of air within it.
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From: Over 500ft/lbs of torque @ just 1.1bar
You were lucky that you had to do so little to maintain a good seal and also keep the undertray. The guys that fitted mine had no choice to remove it and to my concern also mapped her without any sort of undertray in place!
I was really fussy about making sure that 100% of the surface area so enlarged the duct as well as cut away the parts that bent downwards.
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From: East coast.
Damn! Seeing that picture of that TMIC it's more like trying to fit a microwave oven in than a top mount!
To back up what Harvey's saying, not that he needs any backup from me, I had a v4 STi TMIC on my classic wagon and it could not control charge temps beyond just normal driving. With long runs through the gears it would be hitting 50-75 degrees and beyond, well past the point at which most experts would want to keep charge temps and into the zone where you're going to be getting serious det problems if you don't back off the timing severely. The top mount might be good enough for a quick headline power pull on a rolling road, but in hard use it was ****. Even in everyday use as soon as you slowed down it started soaking up heat like a sponge.
Changed to a FMIC and it's a totally different story. In normal driving I find it running at 5-8 degrees above ambient and best of all, short blasts do absolutely nothing to the charge temp - nothing. I just did a trackday last week and I was seeing around consistently around 15 degrees above ambient; this was using 1.45 bar of boost. The highest it hit all day was 36 degrees IIRC.
To back up what Harvey's saying, not that he needs any backup from me, I had a v4 STi TMIC on my classic wagon and it could not control charge temps beyond just normal driving. With long runs through the gears it would be hitting 50-75 degrees and beyond, well past the point at which most experts would want to keep charge temps and into the zone where you're going to be getting serious det problems if you don't back off the timing severely. The top mount might be good enough for a quick headline power pull on a rolling road, but in hard use it was ****. Even in everyday use as soon as you slowed down it started soaking up heat like a sponge.
Changed to a FMIC and it's a totally different story. In normal driving I find it running at 5-8 degrees above ambient and best of all, short blasts do absolutely nothing to the charge temp - nothing. I just did a trackday last week and I was seeing around consistently around 15 degrees above ambient; this was using 1.45 bar of boost. The highest it hit all day was 36 degrees IIRC.
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From: at the petrol station again!!!
To put it in very simple terms IMHO on a classic, if you want value for money and performance, fit a cheap FMIC. STi8 TMICs (it would be pointless to fit any lesser top mount) can be fitted to classics, but when you tot up the fact that they're often the same price as a whole FMIC kit even though second hand, you still have to start cutting stuff and repositioning things, you need to fit a properly sized STi8 scoop and undertray etc etc...it looks to me that you'd be spending at least twice as much money if not more on a top mount conversion.
agreed when i was looking for sti8 top mount they were ranging between £200-£250 second hand,in the end i got an autobahn88 fmic off ebay for £170 all in.
have a look in the group buy section i think kips was running a group buy on autobahnn88 fmic's for about £190 delivered
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Did you find like me that it doesn't sit flush where it mates to the Inlet manifold. The mouth of the TMIC sits slightly higher than the inlet mouth.
You were lucky that you had to do so little to maintain a good seal and also keep the undertray. The guys that fitted mine had no choice to remove it and to my concern also mapped her without any sort of undertray in place!
I was really fussy about making sure that 100% of the surface area so enlarged the duct as well as cut away the parts that bent downwards.
You were lucky that you had to do so little to maintain a good seal and also keep the undertray. The guys that fitted mine had no choice to remove it and to my concern also mapped her without any sort of undertray in place!
I was really fussy about making sure that 100% of the surface area so enlarged the duct as well as cut away the parts that bent downwards.
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Scooby Regular
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From: edinburgh
Thanks for the info guys, a lot of points to take in. Sounds like i'm better going for a front mount after all. Going to get the autobahn fmic. Are fmic hard to fit? And how much cutting and repositioning things are required?
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From: at the petrol station again!!!
i did not need to reposition anything on my car but not sure about classic.
have a look in the projects section kips has done a good write up and put some decent pictures on there about fitting a front mount.
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From: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Don't forget the pressure drop across the pipework and cooler on a FMIC install. The extra volume can also introduce surge and part throttle response issues that just don't exist on a TMIC.
The Type 25 Impreza runs a TMIC at over 400bhp and is designed for track use.
For the quickest throttle response and quick boost recovery after a gearshift a TMIC is the answer, I have retained a TMIC on my spec C with 450+bhp and 500+lbft of torque yet I have a few FMIC's sitting redundant on the shelf !
Its perfect for road use. For track use at over 450bhp I would consider A fmic
Here is what someone had to say recently about his move to a FMIC
More interesting reading here - https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...es-please.html
The Type 25 Impreza runs a TMIC at over 400bhp and is designed for track use.
For the quickest throttle response and quick boost recovery after a gearshift a TMIC is the answer, I have retained a TMIC on my spec C with 450+bhp and 500+lbft of torque yet I have a few FMIC's sitting redundant on the shelf !
Its perfect for road use. For track use at over 450bhp I would consider A fmic
Here is what someone had to say recently about his move to a FMIC
I originally went from TMIC to FMIC (on 03 STI) in the belief it would make the car faster. In reality, while the charge intake temps were kept very low even while idling at the lights (!), on the move, it made the car slower through the gears, as each gear change was accompanied by quite a bit of extra lag, adding perhaps a quarter to a half a second extra per gear change. And before someone starts spouting the "any lag can be mapped out crap", I had my car mapped for the FMIC by both Andy F and Bob Rawle, two of the most highly respected mappers out there. The bottom line is, the car was very unsatisfyling to drive - like having the throttle connected with a bit of elastic!
I now have reverted back to a TMIC, going for the Hyperflow TMIC (although this may be considered overkill as the general consensus is that the ver8 TMIC is still good for up to 400bhp), to accommodate the extra grunt of an MD321H turbo The difference is night and day - the throttle response is crisp and lag between gear changes all but eliminated. The car now feels blindlingy quick on the move and is a pleasure to drive. I'm currently making just over 400bhp and my temperature sensor plumbed into the throttle body shows that the TMIC is keeping intake temps down to within +15C of ambient, even on hard sustained full throttle runs. This is only about 5C higher than that achieved with the FMIC, which kept intake temps down to within +10C of ambient. Obviously, after standing at the lights, there is more heatsoak with a TMIC, but charge temperature quickly drops back to near ambient after 20 seconds or so of being on the move. Just to reiterate, the TMIC makes the car much more driveable and faster in real driving conditions - I really can't see why anyone running 400bhp or less would even consider a FMIC. I regret I did - it was an expensive lesson to learn. Hope this helps.
I now have reverted back to a TMIC, going for the Hyperflow TMIC (although this may be considered overkill as the general consensus is that the ver8 TMIC is still good for up to 400bhp), to accommodate the extra grunt of an MD321H turbo The difference is night and day - the throttle response is crisp and lag between gear changes all but eliminated. The car now feels blindlingy quick on the move and is a pleasure to drive. I'm currently making just over 400bhp and my temperature sensor plumbed into the throttle body shows that the TMIC is keeping intake temps down to within +15C of ambient, even on hard sustained full throttle runs. This is only about 5C higher than that achieved with the FMIC, which kept intake temps down to within +10C of ambient. Obviously, after standing at the lights, there is more heatsoak with a TMIC, but charge temperature quickly drops back to near ambient after 20 seconds or so of being on the move. Just to reiterate, the TMIC makes the car much more driveable and faster in real driving conditions - I really can't see why anyone running 400bhp or less would even consider a FMIC. I regret I did - it was an expensive lesson to learn. Hope this helps.
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From: Gloucestershire
One thing to remember is to ensure all of the joints are sealed properly, a top tip that APi posted on here was to ensure all joints are clean and free from oil and dirt and then spray hairspray onto them immediately prior to fitting the silicon hose joiners. Tighten the jubilee's with a screwdriver (preferably with a socket end) and leave to dry for several hours, or even better days. Do not overtighten as they can bend the pipes making a seal very hard to achieve.
If you dont get a good seal the car will drive like a total dog.
Took me 3 days in winter to do mine the first time around, easy once you have been through it before though.
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From: Gloucestershire
Don't forget the pressure drop across the pipework and cooler on a FMIC install. The extra volume can also introduce surge and part throttle response issues that just don't exist on a TMIC.
The Type 25 Impreza runs a TMIC at over 400bhp and is designed for track use.
For the quickest throttle response and quick boost recovery after a gearshift a TMIC is the answer, I have retained a TMIC on my spec C with 450+bhp and 500+lbft of torque yet I have a few FMIC's sitting redundant on the shelf !
Its perfect for road use. For track use at over 450bhp I would consider A fmic
Here is what someone had to say recently about his move to a FMIC
More interesting reading here - https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...es-please.html
The Type 25 Impreza runs a TMIC at over 400bhp and is designed for track use.
For the quickest throttle response and quick boost recovery after a gearshift a TMIC is the answer, I have retained a TMIC on my spec C with 450+bhp and 500+lbft of torque yet I have a few FMIC's sitting redundant on the shelf !
Its perfect for road use. For track use at over 450bhp I would consider A fmic
Here is what someone had to say recently about his move to a FMIC
More interesting reading here - https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...es-please.html
Andy,
From my experience an 'elastic' throttle response is symptomatic of a leak in the system, a well fitted FMIC in my opinion should not cause an elastic sensation on the throttle. I have had a poorly sealed FMIC and have these symptoms exactly, been in another car with a properly sealed FMIC and was not able to notice any difference in throttle response over a top mount.
I do bow to your superior knowledge of impreza's and also my lowly level of driving possibly leaving me unable to pick up on the difference though
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FWIW - my reasoning in going with a TMIC were this.
Car v4 type R.
This car is a road car 99.99% of the year. So drivability is what i want. Im looking for 350-400hp which i believe is quite adequate / enjoyable for a public road.
From my research here and elsewhere that a larger than my stock TMIC (v4 sti that is) would do the job powerwise. To me getting a fmic would be like getting too big a turbo. Sure u get the power but at what cost ? To me you have to get the right size both turbo + IC for the application.
Too many people try and wring the last kw out of a too small turbo way out of its efficiency range and then blame the intercooler - lol
So it seems a no brainer to get a interccoler that would do the job with the shortest possible piping.
Its just horses for courses.
Car v4 type R.
This car is a road car 99.99% of the year. So drivability is what i want. Im looking for 350-400hp which i believe is quite adequate / enjoyable for a public road.
From my research here and elsewhere that a larger than my stock TMIC (v4 sti that is) would do the job powerwise. To me getting a fmic would be like getting too big a turbo. Sure u get the power but at what cost ? To me you have to get the right size both turbo + IC for the application.
Too many people try and wring the last kw out of a too small turbo way out of its efficiency range and then blame the intercooler - lol
So it seems a no brainer to get a interccoler that would do the job with the shortest possible piping.
Its just horses for courses.
Several points.
If you have a Classic with O/E TMIC and it is tuned to a medium level, you already have relatively high charge temperatures. The Subaru TMIC has evolved, model on model, all the way through to the M/Y 2007. The New Age FMIC installations are far more capable than the Classic and from STi 8 onwards there is a noticable improvement but this has to incorporate a much more prominent scoop and the O/E underplate to achieve the benefits which still lag a bit behind a competant FMIC.
Fitting these satisfactorily to a Classics is a PITA and likely to cost as much or more than a competant FMIC installation. Certainly, the time element was far greater for me.
Some of the cheap FMIC cores are bar and plate and by virtue of their design they will have a greater pressure drop across the core than a slightly more expensive tube and fin which is also lighter.
If you have a Classic with O/E TMIC and it is tuned to a medium level, you already have relatively high charge temperatures. The Subaru TMIC has evolved, model on model, all the way through to the M/Y 2007. The New Age FMIC installations are far more capable than the Classic and from STi 8 onwards there is a noticable improvement but this has to incorporate a much more prominent scoop and the O/E underplate to achieve the benefits which still lag a bit behind a competant FMIC.
Fitting these satisfactorily to a Classics is a PITA and likely to cost as much or more than a competant FMIC installation. Certainly, the time element was far greater for me.
Some of the cheap FMIC cores are bar and plate and by virtue of their design they will have a greater pressure drop across the core than a slightly more expensive tube and fin which is also lighter.
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With all the discussions concerning the top mounts/ stroke front mounts, could i throw this question in? When i was modding my my 00 uk classic from a full de-cat and ekutek map to a vf 35, warlbro 255 and a fuel reg. I opted for an autobahn top mount from flat4online because they are rated upto 350 bhp???. I could see the boys at scoobyclinic didn't look overly convinced with it but they fitted it anyway and gave me my oem topmount back in my boot....... The boys seemed happy with my power output of 303/280 and i have had no problems since the work done, car goes well.
Anyway my question after reading some of the threads, should i bolt back my standard top mount if they are good for 300-330 bhp? (i didn't know this when i bought the autobahn) Would i gain any benefits or would it upsette the map and running of my car?? Or would you suggest to stick with the current top mount and not worry that i could of squeezed a few more bhp with the my 00 uk classic topmount??
cheers steve
Anyway my question after reading some of the threads, should i bolt back my standard top mount if they are good for 300-330 bhp? (i didn't know this when i bought the autobahn) Would i gain any benefits or would it upsette the map and running of my car?? Or would you suggest to stick with the current top mount and not worry that i could of squeezed a few more bhp with the my 00 uk classic topmount??
cheers steve
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From: at the petrol station again!!!
With all the discussions concerning the top mounts/ stroke front mounts, could i throw this question in? When i was modding my my 00 uk classic from a full de-cat and ekutek map to a vf 35, warlbro 255 and a fuel reg. I opted for an autobahn top mount from flat4online because they are rated upto 350 bhp???. I could see the boys at scoobyclinic didn't look overly convinced with it but they fitted it anyway and gave me my oem topmount back in my boot....... The boys seemed happy with my power output of 303/280 and i have had no problems since the work done, car goes well.
Anyway my question after reading some of the threads, should i bolt back my standard top mount if they are good for 300-330 bhp? (i didn't know this when i bought the autobahn) Would i gain any benefits or would it upsette the map and running of my car?? Or would you suggest to stick with the current top mount and not worry that i could of squeezed a few more bhp with the my 00 uk classic topmount??
cheers steve
Anyway my question after reading some of the threads, should i bolt back my standard top mount if they are good for 300-330 bhp? (i didn't know this when i bought the autobahn) Would i gain any benefits or would it upsette the map and running of my car?? Or would you suggest to stick with the current top mount and not worry that i could of squeezed a few more bhp with the my 00 uk classic topmount??
cheers steve
in my opinion i cannot see there would be much to gain from putting the original back on,but i do stand to be corrected if i am wrong
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From: Greece, previously Syd Australia
With all the discussions concerning the top mounts/ stroke front mounts, could i throw this question in? When i was modding my my 00 uk classic from a full de-cat and ekutek map to a vf 35, warlbro 255 and a fuel reg. I opted for an autobahn top mount from flat4online because they are rated upto 350 bhp???. I could see the boys at scoobyclinic didn't look overly convinced with it but they fitted it anyway and gave me my oem topmount back in my boot....... The boys seemed happy with my power output of 303/280 and i have had no problems since the work done, car goes well.
Anyway my question after reading some of the threads, should i bolt back my standard top mount if they are good for 300-330 bhp? (i didn't know this when i bought the autobahn) Would i gain any benefits or would it upsette the map and running of my car?? Or would you suggest to stick with the current top mount and not worry that i could of squeezed a few more bhp with the my 00 uk classic topmount??
cheers steve
Anyway my question after reading some of the threads, should i bolt back my standard top mount if they are good for 300-330 bhp? (i didn't know this when i bought the autobahn) Would i gain any benefits or would it upsette the map and running of my car?? Or would you suggest to stick with the current top mount and not worry that i could of squeezed a few more bhp with the my 00 uk classic topmount??
cheers steve
Do you have the "elastic band" throttle response?
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Anyway my question after reading some of the threads, should i bolt back my standard top mount if they are good for 300-330 bhp? (i didn't know this when i bought the autobahn) Would i gain any benefits or would it upsette the map and running of my car?? Or would you suggest to stick with the current top mount and not worry that i could of squeezed a few more bhp with the my 00 uk classic topmount??
cheers steve
cheers steve
The map should cope with you swapping tho.
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