dij

Well its happened again.
My car is a 99 turbo wagon with lots of jdm goodies inc totall sti 5 running gear.
My sti 5 engine has given up (Im having a dejavous for the 3rd time)
It was previously rebuilt with cosworth pistons, ggr oil pump new gaskets/seals/bearings/belts etc.and Everything standard apart from an hks pan filter and spark plugs.

There was an oil leek on the os rocker cover and the smoke was going straight int the air box.
There was also a blowing gasket inbetween the left manifold and link pipe.
Also I had been using optimax with ob untill the last tank (ran out of octane boost).Oh yes and to top it off The car was being thrashed.

I have lost compression in piston 2,there is oil drippig from the header joints and from the fly wheel area,and there is lots of oil ontop of the engine and inside the intercooler.

The engine was rebuilt 1500 miles ago and majority of internals where new.
I am pretty fed up with all agro that comes with this car(detting,melting,knocking,shell petrol,high insurance,and the little b4st4rd MAF)

IS MY TURBO KNACKERED ASWELL?
WHY DID THIS HAPPEN ?
WILL AN APEXI POWER FC SOLVE THE FUELING PROBLEM?
CAN I USE A UK TURBO/WRX 99> ENGINE ?
IS ANYONE INTERSESTED IN MY CAR AS IT IS ?

Any feed back would be appreciated .
Thanks

Dark Blue Mark

Was it the MAF again? Did you have a knock link and boost gauge fitted?

Certainly something big is wrong to blow up that quick, after a rebuild with forged pistons. You need to get it checked by one of the better tuners, all the obvious thinks like fuel pressure, MAF, boost etc.

MB

StickyMicky

its been thrashed after a rebuild that was only done 1500 miles ago?

greasemonkey

Are you saying that you were running on plain old Optimax at the moment the car sh*t itself?

If your engine is consistently eating itself I'd have to ask some questions about the way it's being rebuilt (the leaking gasket and seals certainly don't portray the engine builder in a favourable light) or the way it's been mapped.

What exactly do you mean by it having complete STi5 running gear? Does this extend to the complete engine, turbo and ECU, or is your car a UK market model, with a standard ECU?

If so, are you running standard boost, and do you have a boost gauge to verify that it's what it should be?

Are you running a KnockLink, and if so, did it warn you of any det prior to the meltdown?

In order to form any sort of considered opinion, more information is necessary. Could you give us some more of the juice?

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

I reckon after the third engine rebuild that I would have either given up and sold it or be driving it pretty gingerly.

Was your car mapped properly to cope with the HKS induction?

If you knew that oil vapour was being sucked into the filter why did you not do something about it? OIL kills MAFs=engine failure.

F

dij

OK
I realise my statement may be misleading.
I havent done all in the same car.

just to clarify,my first car (sti4) developed a knock on the way home just after I bought it.I put it down to poss of bad servicing(car had 37k miles).
Fortunately the dealer agreed to give me a refund.

I was hooked on the sti spec/performance so I had to get another.
Next was an sti 5 .I was assuming this car would be better due to the newer technology,lower mileage,proper service history and it was imported from new.
I soon treeted it to a HKS straight through exhaust and a pan air filter.
It was run on optimax as most where advising,and it did well for nearly a year
and I was driving it hard most of the time.After noticing strange engine behavior I took it to Power enginearing,and found out that the MAF was dead.After this visit The car was alot smoother but generaly felt slower.300 miles later and the engine started knocking.I had a s/h engine fitted and sold the car.

A few months later a very cheep scooby became available,( I was still addicted and feeling withdrawal symptoms).Cheep because it was in bad condition and the gearbox was noisy).The car is a UK model wagon(previous was sal 4d) so I was happy with the freedom to use main dealers, the insurance also a little cheaper,and more practicality,but I began longing for my old car so I started throwing money at it (Twice the amount I had saved)
Basically the engine was rebuilt in this car as a precaution/perfomance uppgrade whilst the gearbox/clutch/diff where being changed,
I still had lots of sti engine parts and contacts through work helped me with all other parts to make the engine,turbo,exhaust,ecu,ic,g box(practically everything that would make it sti power),Oh yes and it had a new MAF fitted.

so far I hadn't discovered SCOOBY NET and all my info was from talking to other scooby drivers/dealers/technicians,most of which had contrasting opinions.The general idea seemed to be that it needs to be run on Optimax,keep it as standard as possible,
and change the MAF.

I have run it for 1050miles running in and done everything as it should be.The rebuilder may come off bad here because of the leeks but I dont blame him as it was a job and half(I had also decided to have AC fitted during part of its transformation and he did it all)and the leeks where due to be done on the weekend.

The point is I didnt know or think that the engine could go so quickly.My last car did 11000 before its end and it was driven MUCH harder.I know alot of you may be be thinking that why didnt you do this or that because the answers are all on the forums,but I only started using SN A few months ago
and I was no longer interested in making it go faster( my previos conception of all these screens and dials in cars was that they where mainly performance enhancing or for show) nor did I think that a MAF could fail after such a short time.The airfilter is a replacement panel and supposed to be non oil type.If burning oil smoke can damage the airflow sensor and lead to a dead engine, then driving behind a smokey van or sitting in traffic behind a smoker could cost you £2000+ (£73 maf).

Is it just me or does it seem like this car is just for technological wizards?
surely the average driver wouldnt know that going to the wrong petrol station
could cost you the next few months of your hard earned.

Thanks

dij

I was running on plain optimax when it blew.
There is no knock link.
No mapping but ecu was reset.
The rocker cover gasket and all seels where new ,the next step was to try another rocker cover(the oil leek had been attempted previously and the new cover was in the boot at the time of death).
The exhaust gasket blow was very minor and only noticable when you where under the car.
The mechanic is a friend and has worked on every car I have had (Believe me Ive had lots),and although I may have lost faith in him after this I still dont blame him.

To answer the boost question,I have a lamco gauge and the boost never whent over 1.1bar( my last car was usualy at 1.3)
When the intercooler was taken off there was alot of oil inside and upon starting lots of oil shot out of the turbo in a cloud.
Is my Turbo deffinately gone or could the back pressure be forcing oil into the intake of the turbo through breather pipes?turbo is IhI vf34

I feel like a bit of an idiot because Im learning the hard way,but I do feel that every scooby owner/potential owner should know that this is such a fragile car.
It seems that you have to have your car remapped,run on OM + OB,a knock link installed,and a new MAF with every Mobil 1 oil change,Just so that you can drive it .

I havent ever had a problem with any sporty car I have owned before and I drive every thing hard.The wagon is deffinately the best alround car anyone can have (I am still scooby mad, just very frustrated/skint by it)apart from this issue with engines.

IS it true that the UK standard car lasts much longer?

Is 280 bhp too much power from a 2.0 engine ?

Can a late WRX engine fit in with inlet manifold and turbo?

Could I keep the sti ecu to run a uk engine?

greasemonkey

Ah, that makes it a little clearer.

Optimax alone isn't enough for a Japanese market car. This car would have been expecting 100 octane fuel, and is very marginal on 98 octane Optimax even when working properly. Add a failing MAF sensor and you're soon pushing it well beyond critical. Given that you say you were giving it a good thrap, it's not surprising it eventually gave up.

And it still shat itself? Would still be asking questions about the quality of the engine build. How was the increase to "STi power" achieved, via an ECU remap or an external device such as a manual boost controller? Were you monitoring for detonation via a KnockLink? What was this "ECU" that was fitted?

So what? He agreed to do it and was presumably paid for the privilege. Returning an engine that lost oil and blew though an exhaust gasket is not, in any way, excused by claims that it was a tough job, they're easy enough to rectify. While these issues may be a coincidence, if the engine was obviously, and visibly wrong, it doesn't really inspire confidence in the bits of the job you couldn't see.

They normally don't. Sounds like there was something seriously wrong with yours after the rebuild, doesn't it?

We'll give you some leeway for being a little ignorant about some of the finer points of Impreza maintenance/ownership, but, to be blunt, being soft isn't excusable in the same way. If I paid for an engine rebuild and it lunched itself just over a thousand miles later, I'd be going back to the builder and claiming on the warranty, assuming one was offered.

Some of them are extremely valuable. A KnockLink for instance would likely have saved you a stack of money.

They normally don't. What makes you think the airflow sensor is responsible this time? Given that the one you had was (supposedly) replaced during the rebuild, I'd suspect another cause.

What make is it?

The claim further up the thread that oil from your leaking gasket would/could have caused MAF damage is slightly alarmist.

No, of course not. As this forum regularly illustrates, many of them are driven by complete numpties who have no idea what is under the bonnet, and for hundreds of thousands of trouble-free miles.

However, if you're going to muck about with Japanese market cars and modified engines, you have to be both a little more clued up, and more aware of the potential downsides.

The average driver wouldn't be behind the wheel of a car that's running so close to (or in your case, by the sound of it, beyond) its safe operating limits. Regular UK specification engines can tolerate a wide variation in fuel quality without going pop.

It is extremely difficult to comment on your specific situation without knowing more about the exact circumstances under which your engine was recently rebuilt. What parts you specified, what was fitted, what power output was asked for, how the power increase was achieved, what fuel you were told you use and so-on. For it to go in less than 500 miles after the running in period was over, it sounds as though it's running too much boost/not enough fuel.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be straight back down the engine builder tomorrow asking why your pride and joy is sitting there with a melted piston, and what they're going to do about it. What warranty terms were you offered when you agreed to have them rebuild your engine?

dij

The engineer ( my mate) has been working on getting the problem sorted,and is suggesting a second hand engine for which he is going to contribute towards (how or how much is not clear yet).He seems to think it was over boosting.

The ecu is standard sti 5 ecu and the heads on the engine where sti
5.
A tech at GGR told me the main differences between a UK and STi engine and that is why I baught the pistns and the oil pump.

Could the timing belt fitting affect anything?

Has no 2 piston gone for any other reason before?

what else might he have done wrong that would cause such a failure?

Could a particle of dirt cause a melting piston?

Thanks for your help so far greasemonkey .
most of the proper replies in these are forums seem to be from you.
I feel honored

Dark Blue Mark

I think the trap you have fallen into is quite common. People new to Subaru's want to go for an STi straight away - as its the one everyone talks about.

Its quite a bit more specialised when running one in the UK, and you really have to know your stuff. An immidiate first on an STi, is to run it on Optimax and OB, fit a boost gauge, KL, and AFR. If you know your stuff, it can be a great car. They aren't that fragile, if you're careful.

You mention you fully decatted your STi5. I know my stock fuel pump now cant keep up above 6500 rpm in 4th and 5th as shown by the KL. Add a damaged MAF to this and it would be piston melt city. Although you changed the MAF, it would have been way too late.

The UK model is much more forgiving. You can safely decat it and the fuelling can cope. The MAF can still kill it though.

BTW, the lamco gauge reads in KG/CM3.

Did I get you right that you are using an STi in a Uk engine that would be a no-no, and I ddn't think you could without some fiddling. Why would you want to? On an STi5, the best thing is to get an ECUTEK remap, for UK fuel etc.

MB

greasemonkey

You probably won't be by the time I'm finished.

Yes, you've already said that.

Eh? You mean that there's no KnockLink, or that you have disconnected the standard knock sensor?

Ah.

Matters not. The fact that it was leaking in the first place means that the job's not been done properly.

No written warranty then?

Yeah, given the frequency you seem to break them, I can believe that.

Just because he's done a lot of work for you in the past doesn't mean he's qualified to handle this sort of job. Tuning high performance engines without blowing them up takes experience and knowledge, not a well-meaning backstreet tinkerer.

Impossible to say.

I see. You don't think that mixing and matching bits of different cars might be the cause of your problems? So far we've got an STi5 ECU and a VF34 on an (at least in part) UK engine, without a proper remap. Ta-daaa.

To be honest you're starting to sound a like one, but let's not dwell on that...

Sorry, but they're not. If you muck around with them in the way you have been, you can hardly be surprised when something goes wrong.

As a generalisation, that's complete b*ll*cks, sorry. They're nowhere near as fragile as you're making out; the problems you've experienced appear to be largely self-inflicted. Your car certainly needed remapping because you were running a different turbo to the one the ECU expected, and, to compound the problem, were running British fuel on a Japanese fuel map. You created that problem, don't tar all Imprezas with the "fragile" brush just because you and your pal screwed up!

Yes and no. There's a general principle in any form of engine modification that "the light that burns twice as bright burns half as long", and as standard UK cars produce less power than some of the foreign market ones, the engines are likely to be lower stressed. However, modifications, sensibly and properly applied, shouldn't unduly shorten the working life of the engine.

Erm, no. There's one member of this board driving a 585bhp 2.0 STi engine every day. These engines will happily deliver well in excess of the sort of figures if the modifications are implemented properly. Your problem is that your modifications were random and implemented badly. Sorry, but that's how it is.

WTF do you mean by a "late WRX"? Are you talking about a new shape car? If I were you I wouldn't mess around with anything else yourself, or indeed involve your pal, he's partly responsible for involving himself in this in the first place. Get someone who really knows the cars to sort your mess out.

Not without a complete remap. This is part of the reason why your engine went pop. You're running an ECU that thinks it's controlling a VF28 turbo on 100 octane fuel.

The situation with your current car, as I see it, appears to be as follows:

You embarked on a misguided attempt to increase the power and strength of your engine by throwing a seemingly random set of parts (STi ECU of some sort, heads, VF34 turbo etc.) under the bonnet and just expected the thing to work, safely.

This plan was fatally flawed from the outset. You can't simply chuck parts together like this. Different turbos have different flow rates, and thus the ECU must be mapped to the turbo (and fuel) in use.

Putting a quick-spooling VF34 on an ECU that is mapped for a VF28 would introduce underfuelling during parts of the map, and compounding the error by using regular Optimax on an ECU that expects 100 octane fuel, and it's not hard to see why your engine soon decided it had had enough of you.

I'm not really sure what your next move is, but before you do anything, you really need to get a grip on what you're doing before your wallet gets hit even harder. I would certainly caution you against doing another mix and match, or involving your "friend" in the job.

Dark Blue Mark

I think GM has just lost his patience, but it made me chuckle quite a bit.

As the main man says, its not a lego set, things need to be thought through before slapping them together. Not sure who you're getting your advice from, but suspect they are the sort of "expert car tuner" I often meet at the local pub

People on here will help you, if you give all the info.

MB

dij

THE ECU IS A STNDARD STI FIVE UNIT
THE TURBO WAS FROM THE SAME CAR
THE HEADS WHERE FROM THE SAME TYPE OF CAR
THE BLOCK WAS ORIGNAL UK ENGINE
THE PISTONS ARE STANDARD SIZE COSWORTH
THE INLET MANIFOLD/INJECTORS WHERE FROM AN STI 5
IS THIS REGARDED AS A MIX AND MATCH OF WRONG PARTS?
ARE THERE ANY OTHER DIFFERENCES BETWEEN UK AND STI 1999 MODEL ENGINES?

THE LATE WRX ENGINE WOULD BE FROM ANYTHING NEWER THAN A V6 CLASSIC
IE BUG EYE

I HAVE AN APEXI FC ECU,CAN THIS BE USED TO RUN ANY ENGINE AS LONG AS THE REPROGRAMMING IS CORRECT?

Dark Blue Mark

You're using a MY01> engine, with STi5 heads, and UK block with an STi5 ECU, STi5 turbo.

Thats a complete ***** up, and not possible I would have thought. Even if it was, why would you want that combo?

Just put it back to normal (whatever that is) sell it, see the Apexi FC, buy a genuine car, and dont mess with it, without "good" advice.

Seriously, you cant expect much more than a blow up with all that.

MB

greasemonkey

Au contraire Mark. If my patience had run out, I'd have told him to p*ss off rather than answer his posts.

Dij: STi5's come with a VF28 turbo, not a VF34, and as mentioned, this ECU would have been expecting 100 octane fuel. Herein lies the root cause of your blow-up.
Cosworth pistons come in a range of sizes. Were they correctly matched to the bores?
Were the rods replaced at the time of the rebuild? Were the correct head gaskets used?

At end of day you should be letting a professional, Subaru experienced, engine builder look at what's left and work out the best way forward. There's only so much we can say without seeing the car.

dij

Fair comment GM

To try and clarify again,the plan was to convert the car to an sti 5
so everything was taken from an sti 5 and put into this car.
The engine parts where all ordered as standard sti 5 parts from GGR.
The con rods where new,and the pistons where the correct size.
The only thing uk about the engine is the bare block and crank.
All seels and gaskets sti 5.
Second hand heads and turbo (vf34)from standard sti 5 (my old engine from previous car)

Please tell me what you think where unsuitable parts

What do you think the turbo is from?
T
The engine is not 2001>,I am just trying to find out if it is worth
buying a s/h low mileage engine available from a breaker(comp with ancil/turbo).This engine is from a2001 car 'late WRX'

will it fit?

greasemonkey

Easiest way to do that is just to buy an STi5. Would have saved all this hassle, and, apart from anything else, a real STi5 would likely be cheaper to insure than a UK car with an extensive raft of modifications on it.

Once again, the underlying issue was your selection of an STi5 ECU and use of VF34 turbo. This alone would probably have been enough to result in a meltdown, but by using Optimax fuel alone, you would undoubtedly have accelerated the problems. If you'd had it remapped professionally, it would probably still be running fine.

It's from a 2001 model year Japanese model STi, or possibly an early 2002 model year STi Type UK.

It'll physically fit as the short block is the same, but you will need to do further surgery to adapt it to your existing installation due to changes to the inlet manifold, a completely different brand of ECU, different exhaust and yet another different turbo.

If you try and bodge it, you'll have another expensive failure on your hands. My opinion remains that you should have your existing engine examined by a professional builder and, if possible, salvaged, rather than simply chucked away

dij

By the way I have only blown scooby engines out of the 30 or so cars Ive had in the last 10 years.Most of the work he does is maintainance on my cars,although he did change the engine in the last scooby

And it is fairly common knowledge in the trade that scooby engines just go wrong.I know of a p1 that popped at 45k miles fsh (now that is mapped on uk fuel).

I realy do like the scooby but there is a problem with them.

Perhaps im p1ssed and this little problem Im having might be
adding to my harsh remarks against the scooby,but Im sure most people dont
need engine rebuilds on other makes of cars that are only 3 or 4 years old(Im not talking about my so called 'lego project')

I realize that this job should have been left to a professional scooby mechanic
and if its a case of my mechanic messed up then in future Ill give him easy jobs like rebuilding an auto gearbox, porting polishing heads or fitting AC which he seems to be good at.

dij

Thanks for all that GM

I might just do that ,still need to find another eng builder
and then try to to get something contributed by my mate.

The insurance is cheaper on a uk car if mods like thes are not mentioned.
I know not the right way.

The turbo as far as I know was on the car from day 1 (VF34 on my orignal sti 5)I dont think it was changed ???

I think Ill hit the sack now allthis is to much for my little brain

havent you got a bed to goto ? its 12.25am

ozzy

Is this a wind-up? I'm sure you're well aware that that little fact is highly illegal and due to invalidate your insurance. In fact you might as well drive around without any.

If you want the performance out of an STI, then buy one. I see no point in taking a UK car and turning it into something that you can buy off-the-shelf for less money.

Scoobies have been known to let go, but IMHO it's normally due to misuse, poor servicing, poor maintenance, no monitoring through external sensors, poorly matched modifications or poor fuelling. I've ran my MY99 UK slightly-modified Impreza for nearly 5 years and 70,000 miles and (touch wood) it's never skipped a heart beat.

Blow one car - **** happens,
blow two - you really don't have much luck,
blow three - erm, is there a pattern here?

Stefan

dij

FYI

it was costing me much cheeper than an sti (maybe not now)
all the parts where easily available to me at cheep prices.
All parts used where factory parts.

People mod their cars all the time and I chose to up the power using standard parts rather than 'joe blogs racing' parts.

I am not fully convinced about vf34 not from sti 5.
This was at least on 2 of the engines I had.

Im suspicious about the maf ,because I did have a flat spot.My last car had
a similar problem which whent when the maf was changed.

Insurance is irelevant at the moment and the least of my worries.

Im sure that uk turbo drivers would prefer sti standard if they could,and perhaps you where just lucky to get the right info and a safer car.
My point how many people know about detting etc,unless they
have access to sites like this?.

How many JDM scooby drivers are using SUL,or know what octane boost is?

ozzy

Japanese cars are a whole different ball games for the simple fact that they are designed and mapped to run on 100 RON fuel.

The blow-up or get bad press simply because people are unaware of this. Personally, I'd lay a lot of the blame @ the doorstep of so-called specialists and importers. You can't trace the history of a Japanese-sourced car and you'd be amazed (in fact shocked to here some stories of what goes on).

I have a UK Turbo car myself and happily ran without any issues totally oblivious to all this talk about det. It's not been until the last 1.5years that I've found out what it means and what the implications are.

I'm sure there are plenty of STI's running around on SUL, but you can't ignore the fact that they are increasing their risks substantially and either they've been lucky so far or it's only a matter of time that things start to go wrong. At the end of the day, if you expose a car to det, then it shortens it's life span. Just how much it's shortened is open to debate.

Stefan

greasemonkey

No, not the right way at all. Failure to notify the insurer of modifications to your car renders your insurance policy invalid, and makes you guilty of driving without insurance. Further up the thread I just thought you were a bit thick. You're now coming across as a right ****, and I'm far from the only person who thinks so. If this is the sort of thing you get up to, you might as well disappear, as this isn't the sort of behaviour anyone round here will want anything to do with.

You didn't "mod" your car, you bodged it. You simply can't mix and match ECU's and turbos and expect the car to run optimally. Until you tune your head into that reality you're going to repeat mistakes like this in future. It's hardly surprising you've been through a few cars if this is the way you think.

It's simple enough to find out if you don't want to take my word for it. Go and have a look around the web, or ask someone else. The VF34 didn't even exist when the STi5 was in production.

If that's so, that probably partially explains your problems, dunnit?

You're not listening to what we're telling you. If indeed a brand new MAF sensor had been fitted, it wouldn't be shot less than a thousand miles later.
The "flat spot" would likely be the car leaning/detting because the flow map of the VF34 didn't match that of the VF28 the ECU was set up for.

At end of day you've now had all the assistance anyone here can give you. You've got some pretty screwed up ideas which you don't seem to keen to change. Suggest you have a good think about the way you want to go with this.

As Stefan says, one blown engine could be an accident, two would be unfortunate, but your record clearly looks like a trend. You willingness to drive illegally is also something that should be fixed before you even think of putting this car back on the road.

WREXY

You will find VF3X turbos as standard factory fitment on new age STI cars only. The classic Version 5/6 STIs had the VF28 as standard. If you come across a classic with a VF3X on it you can bet it has been fitted as an aftermarket mod.

Dark Blue Mark

I think "bodge" is being polite too

MB

markwild

My UK impreza had 42K on it when I bought it 3 years ago. No mods, nor any awareness of 'det' or knocklinks for 18 months - no probs. Another 18 months and 'thoughtful' (hopefully) mods - now running 280bhp and 102000 miles.....

Thanks to all on here for your assistance -

I don't think that you can just label all imprezas as 'bad', when you've made the same mods 3 times with the same result 3 times - time to STOP IT .....

I think that you're pleading ignorance and I'm afraid that it just doesn't cut it - If I didn't know scoobynet existed, I wouldn't just assume that part A works OK with part B.... I'd find out - and if I couldn't, then I wouldn't mess with it !

Sorry to rant on, but I think that you should start taking some advice from the many experienced people willing to help you above, despite your obvious gut reaction to ignore them when they are saying something that you don't want to hear !!

Mark

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

As GM says above, nothing wrong with standard UK cars with carefully applied mods

Look @ Steven Darley, running iro of 350-360 on a daily basis in his MY00 Wagon & pulling 12.1 on the 1/4 mile Standard UK internals. Lots of more examples like that one (though maybe less power )


Er , the insurance thing is a concern though

MorayMackenzie

GM,

Just as an aside...

RE: "There's one member of this board driving a 585bhp 2.0 STi engine every day."

The engine that the 585bhp dyno plot related to contained non standard uprated internals, it was not a standard STI engine. Impressive figures nontheless.

Moray

greasemonkey

Yeah, I'm aware of that Moray. I was simply responding to the question that asked whether 280bhp was too much for a 2.0 litre engine.

john banks

"IS ANYONE INTERSESTED IN MY CAR AS IT IS ?"

How much?