Mike Tuckwood

OK who wants to give subjective and impartial evaluation of the Tarox 6 pot caliper upgrade as advertised at http://www.tarox.com
and a comparison against the Brembo's.

Particularly 330mm Rotor application/version.

Mike.

Benny Boy

I broached the subject briefly with PC @ Donnington and he said he knew of a car fitted with them and by all accounts very good. From his unspoken words, I would reckon they are comparable to his Brembo kit if not better.

I think you would be lucky to find someone who has actual experience of both.

Stick with these threads man, I'm with you all the way.

Best regards
Benny

nigel

Mike, I can clearly see that this is a subject that is troubling you greatly. I have therefore given this matter a lot of careful consideration.
As something to do at the weekend, and to keep you going until funds allow a purchase of better brakes, this is what I propose:

Take a look at the brake disc and see if the metal guard plate behind is still in place.
If it is, remove it. Next fit some aeroquip hoses and uprated pads.
Most gpN rally cars do this to maximize cooling. You can also attach some ducting from the front bumper/spoiler voids.
I fear that without changing discs and calipers this is as good as it gets.
If this has already been done it's back to the piggy bank.

JohnS

iTrader: (1)

I saw the same advert recently and was thinking along the same lines (I can't afford either - so I'm only dreaming!).

Given that they both cost the same price, I would assume that performance of both kits is very very good, and many times better than the standard setup (even for STi and MY99 cars).

However, I think the Tarox kit required 17 inch wheels to clear the 330mm rotors, which is fine if you have them already, but an extra expense if you don't.

Given their similar costs, I would personally choose the Brembo's for two reasons:

1) They are a well proven part now for the Impreza's and all those who have it fitted give rave reviews. The Tarox is a new kit, and I'd wait to hear from a few owners first before purchasing.

2) The name is everything Brembo's are fitted to the top WRC cars, F1 cars, many very high performance cars (Ferrari, Skyline, EVO etc) as standard. Tarox are very well know for primarily fast road/lower levels of competition use. I'd go for the Brembo's for the name assuming there was very little in price and performance.

Andrew M

For day-to-day driving the STi 4/MY99 brake is almost identical to the Brembo. However the Brembo scores because:

(1) it is lighter and therefore helps handling

(2) it doesn't retain heat so much

Saying that the disks are usually the main culprit for heat retention hence the reason not to keep on the brakes when stationary.

Presuming you're considering upgrading from the STi brakes (after Nigel's excellent advice) try changing disks. Pete C sells some very good Group N ones for comparitively little.

Failing that look at the weight of the Tarox / Brembo (/ AP Racing?) ones. Ensure that you have the right size wheels for the new set up.

This is most applicable for the track. If you do any high-speed road driving course you will end up using your brakes much less. One member who changed from STi to Brembo has since said that the main benefit (of the Brembos) are the looks ;-)

spence

I think the main idea for the six's over the four's is aesthetic.

One of the reasons you have six's on a bike for instance is the keep weight down as you are able to get the same swept area with a narrower and therefor lighter rotor. This of course has the added advantage of making you able to steer quicker as you have less of a gyroscopic affect on your attempt to change direction. Will this affect you road cars handling enough to warrant the extra expense. As far as I am aware Brembo don't do six's for road cars, probably that's one explanation...

andymac

Moving on slightly - maybe it should be a new topic...

How much difference does changing each of the brake components - disc, pads, calipers, hoses etc. make to the stopping potential of the car, i.e., (obviously finances depending) which components would you get most benefit out of changing (assuming the standard 98MY).

Cheers

Andy

Mike Tuckwood

Spence.

6 pots are used so that a longer, ie. greater surface area of the disc can be covered by the longer (larger) brake pad.

The reason behind the extra pot is for equalization of exerted pressure so that a uniform and even pressure is applied against the back face of the brake pad.

Not sure that weight is a factor at all, other than the type of material used for the calipers Etc. Exactly the same reason as they are used on motorcycles.

AnthonyJ

Everyone talks about the UK Turbos and the STis. Where does my 98 WRX fit in? Does it have better brakes than a UK 98 model? I've admittedly not used it on a track (yet!), but I've not noticed any brake fade in normal heavy use (i.e. driving down long winding hills in Devon etc). The only slightly offputting thing is the amount of travel on the brake pedal to get the maximum stopping power.

Anyone have any insight on how the standard WRX compares to the STi for stopping power?

imh

Mike
See it's still going from the original "breakers" thread!
Would love the Brembo upgrade but probably couldn't justify the cost(cars leased at moment) so following on from Andymac's post, is anybody out there using grp N discs and how much of an improvement was there? (Likely to be road rather than track use)
ian

Mike Tuckwood

My car is a MY93 WRX on an L plate.

Ohlins suspension, 17" OZ Polaris', on Fulda tyres (seem pretty good so far), chipped, HKS panel Filter, larger 3" bore exhaust (Ensai)??

Benny Boy.

Have you looked at the Tarox web site, what do you think?
I suspect that in a back to back technical comparison that the Tarox' would be out in front, (if that is the correct analogy) though I am open to other views.

I have two seperate contact names/numbers of people who have Tarox 6 pots fitted, one of which is at a very well known performance specialist in Guess where.....

Go on guess then!

Nottingham, about 6 miles from where I live... more to follow.


John S.

I am not open to views that suggest they must be good because they have xyz's name on them. Trying to be slightly more subjective than that, even though I do understand the basic logic.
Tarox have been around for years, could Tarox do to Brembo, what the EVO 6 has done to the Impreza? ie. taken the principle and technology one step further?

Nigel, Hi.

Funding suggests the sensible thing to do would be: Subaru MY99 4 pots (available second hand for about £200.00 per pair), Braided hoses, Grp N discs, Pagid pads, Dot 5.1 (Castrol Response if I can find a local supplier).

When it comes to cars I have past history for spending in excess of sensible limits, fighting desperately not to be over extravagant. (this is how I imagine giving up smoking to be for a smoker).

Andrew M.

Do you think that the Brembo's look
a) Better than the Tarox 6 pots?
b) Remotely different to the MY99 Subaru 4 pots (apart from the name)?

Further suggestions/assesments gratefully welcome.

Mark McE

Softer tyres also help braking performance - the first time i tried a car on slicks i think i was more impressed with how hard you could brake without locking up rather than ultimate grip etc. - don't last very long however!

The STi 4-pots sound like best value stuff by a country mile - but it might be worth ringing round some of the subaru rally preparation outfits in case they're dismantling a car and selling off some of the more exotic brake kit on the cheap.

I whole-heartedly agree the standard brakes are really pish poor and for me probably the weakest aspect of the car. Toss up whether i do them or an exhaust first....big brappp noises or being able to stop properly....


Cheers, Mark.

imh

Just noticed under "damaged cars" in MN this week -
"Breaking Subaru Impreza Turbos
92-99 saloons and hatches"
01663 744114
Doubt the 99, but might be some uprated second hand brake stuff available...

MarkL

For anyone out there who has changed their pre-99 UK brakes for STi 4-pots, what were the insurance implications? Any extra cost? Was it viewed as a brake modification?

Pete Croney

Mike

a longer pad is not really beneficial, as the heat generated reduces the efficiency of the trailing part of the pad.

Brembo's F1 calipers are eight pot, using 4 pads per caliper, with differential temperature compounds between the leading and trailing pads, to overcome this.

Anthony

WRX's have the same calipers as UK spec cars.

Mark

I haven't known an insurance company increase a premium to an owner that has uprated his brakes.

Crusty

The standard brakes on my MY93 WRX-RA produced -.75G (Non-ABS). After fitting Endless pads, Braided lines & Dot-5 fluid this went up to -.99G. I belive this is the same as a MY99 car WITH ABS....quite cost effective.

Mike Tuckwood

Longer brake pads are more effective mainly due to the increased friction surface area, this is obviously combined with the fact that they are the same width and not narrower than pads in 4 pot calipers.

The only point where the trailing part of the pad would become innefective would be if the friction material exceeded it's upper working temperature.

This is extremely unlikley with the design and type of pad which would be specified for this type of caliper/rotor combination.

This is also helped by slotting/grooving of the disc surface, done to vent super heated air produced at the disc face by the friction process, and as a result of gasses generated by the pad material bonding agents. (These gases can cause the braking world equivalent of aquaplaning tyres in wet weather).

They also assist with the expulsion of brake pad material which can micro weld itself to the surface of the disc during hard use.

As far as I am aware (that doesn't count for much), even during track use, it is unlikely that I or any one of us will exceed the upper working temperature limit of pads of the nature that are being discussed.

760 degrees Centigrade (approximately gas mark 28), I believe is a realsitic figure of upper temperatures for such use?

Pete.

As you so rightly point out Re. F1 cars. my understanding of the reason behind the differing pads in calipers (not always the case apparently) is the MASSIVE temperature differentials seen by these cars, requiring differing materials to give the optimum working RANGE for any particular track.

Scoobys brakes at a track day would be lucky to generate 1g of force or slightly over that, F1 cars regularly see up to 3.5 g of braking force! Enough to induce blurred vision due to distortion of eyeballs, close to blacking out, and causing an increase of driver body weight to approximately 270Kg. ( over 42 stone).

F1 cars brakes (according to Martin Brundle) do not work below 400 degrees and only really begin to work from 600 degrees Centigrade, with a working range well into 4 figures.

I understand you have knowledge of the Tarox upgrade kits, could you give an impartial overview/comparison as per the original posting. Is it possible that you may offer them as an option through Scoobysport in the future?

Regards

Mike.

RobAnderson

I can't help but feel that there appears to be an inherent snobbery against all things non-Brembo. While Brembo's pedigree cannot be questioned, it must be particularly galling for a manufacturer with the repute of Tarox to be dismissed as essentially second-rate by comparison by people who seemingly are more concerned with the writing on the caliper.The fact is the Tarox kit represents excellent value for money in terms of quality and specification and performance (though again,I can't provide a direct comparison with the Brembo's set-up).The only potential downside I can forsee is that the 40-groove discs are likely to produce rapid pad wear.
It's perhaps also worth mentioning that there are quite a few other viable alternatives that have recently come to light: Winnerpower now offer a six-pot kit with 310mm discs(c/d+g) for around £1200 available from TDI, AP have brought out a 310mm four-pot kit as well as their 330mm so as you don't need 17 or 18" wheels with strange offsets (and you certainly can't argue with A.P.'s competition pedigree!) and Bremsport sell a 330mm four-pot kit with carbon-metallic pads (z-rated and so supposedly suitable for road use) for just under £1000, available from Demon Tweeks. So there you go,just thought I'd throw a few more into the equation.

Mike Tuckwood

In the absence of any technical comparison from other areas and in light of the best arguement put forward at this stage being a close run contest between:

a) They look better.
b) Because they say Brembo on them.

In isolation, to look at the technical and engineering spec's for each, then conclusively the Brembo's have been EVO'd

The kit supplied by Tarox on both engineering, and quality standards is AT LEAST as good as the Brembo and from what I have seen probably better.

It is also marginally cheaper, so increasing the value for money factor.

Cosmetics are irrelevant so I won't tread that path (I think they look better).

The 40 groove rotors do not markedly alter pad wear rate or so I am told.

I can get the Tarox kit complete for £1,069.25 (inc. VAT) if any body wants one E mail me direct. That price might go down if several are ordered at the same time.


My local performance specialist (Prima Racing), also sells what he called "the proper Brembo kit" which contains drilled discs and (lovely) yellow calipers Etc?

I am entirely with Rob Anderson on this one, it is shortsighted to think that there is only one solution, when there are several products all unquestionably in the same bracket.

I will buy Tarox, unless somebody comes to me and presents a head and shoulders clear better alternative, (i.e. Brembo's for £950.00 inc vat).

Not likely though, should snobbery (sorry "brand name purchasing") cost this much?

Mike.

Pete Croney

Mike

With regard to the yellow caliper Brembo kits, these are cheaper because the caliper is smaller (and consequently so is the pad area)and the discs are not made by Brembo. This kit is put together by a company called MotorQuality and IS NOT an official Brembo brake kit.

Brembo's UK number is 01280 700664. They will be pleased to answer any questions you may have about official Brembo brake kits.

There's more to a kit than a caliper... and the more holes you put in a disc, the shorter its life. This is probably why Tarrox and AP don't drill their road kit discs either. As all modern pads are de-gassed in manufacture, the "venting of surfaces gasses" argument is well past it's sell by date.

Rob's quite right, there are several choices now. All it takes is for someone to buy one of the other kits and we'll have some feedback.

Mike Tuckwood

De-gassing is still relevant, I am lead to believe that both the Rally and F1 communities have or are in the process of using grooved discs?


My understanding is as yours, that there is more to a kit than a caliper. In fact many other factors, as outlined through this thread have lead me to the conclusion that the Tarox kit is at least as good as but cheaper than the Brembo kit (Proper Scoobysport one).


I hope that my ability to provide feedback arrives soon.


Mike

Mark Sleap

Mike,
I dont know about F1, but in April '98 issue of CCC, there is an article on the '98 Monte Carlo rally. There is an interview with David Lapworth, and a picture of the new Bilstein dampers being used on Subaru's WRC. This shows AP brakes, look like 6-pot, with 6 grooves on the [huge!!] disc.
Whats the latest on best deals you've come across?

Regards,
Mark

Mike Tuckwood

Mark, I thank you.

I see from your profile we are in the same game (or similar).

Best cost to this stage is £1,070. rounded up, with rear braided hoses also.

Won't improve much unless more people come forward with some cash.

Theo

why are you all talking about 6 pot ugrade's ?

I best brakes come from holland !!!!
Here is a guy who puts a Porche Bi -Turbo, brake system to his Impreza, this guy is a real crack what about tuning ad rally driving, if you want to know more let me know !

The brakeset only fits on 18 inch wheels !!!!

Notice that it's not cheap !

Mike Tuckwood

Theo.

The 6 pot calipers we are talking about are less than half the cost of the brakes you describe.

And I haven't got 18" wheels.

[This message has been edited by Mike Tuckwood (edited 02-04-99).]

Theo

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME TRY THIS PAGES;

http://www.goldmine.nl/~d.butler/


On one of those pictures is the brakeset !!

The price is about 1900 quid !!!!!!!!

Theo

Hi, Mike !

Sorry, I thought that you where looking for the "Best" Brake-system, for the Impreza !(i was told)

I saw it last sunday, on the Assen racetrack, and It was really awesome, to see!
when I asked the guy, how is the Braking, he said there is nothing better !!!
And he knows he has the trackrecord with a Impreza.
The Disksize is 322 x 32 mm.

He is developing a brake-set as upgrade for the 99MY impreza, with 320 x 25 mm AP Racing, this fits the 16 inch std wheels !


So when it's not a answer to your question, maybe it is interesting to know !

Have you seen the pictures of Assen ?


Greatings , Theo

Mike Tuckwood

Theo.

Yes I had a look, difficult to tell just how big they are as the photo is so close in on the wheel.

If I could afford the best, I would be fitting water cooled brakes, not the ones which are fitted to your friends Impreza.


It's always possible to take things just that little bit further.

Always good to hear of people setting records (with an Impreza of course).

Always good to know what is going on elsewhere, I thought AP already did a kit to fit 16" wheels???

It will need to be carefully priced, there is already competition for the title!

Mike.

Theo

mike,

I'm a new comer in the Impreza world, I'm getting my first "Star25", soon !

But I'm trying to know as much as I can about the Impreza Turbo, and that's a lot, more than I ever could dream.

But guy's like you, are die-hards in this world, so correct me if I'm writing something stupid or wrong.
Then I'm learning !!!!!

No problem, at all !

Greating, Theo

RobAnderson

On the subject of the AP brakes; I was slightly out on the new smaller sized kit, it's 300x28 not 310 as I originally said and requires a 7x16" wheel.The other point is that I was reliably informed by the boys 'in the know' at Demon Tweeks that the AP set-up is in fact the best brake kit currently available for the Impreza (and bear in mind they also market Brembo[pseudo-Brembo?] and Tarox) in terms of quality of build and performance.However, as purse-strings were tight and DT were quoting £1402+VAT for the AP kit+ the cost of spacers+nuts so that the calipers would fit inside my 7x17 wheels(the smaller kit wasn't yet available) ,I thought I'd plump for the cheaper Tarox kit which spec.-wise appears better value.I've only just fitted them and hence they aren't bedded in yet so I can't yet tell just how good they are but aesthetically they certainly look wonderful and the quality is first rate.I do notice though that PTS are now selling the AP kit for a measly £1215 inc.vat and of course there is the smaller size now.
Bugger.