i80386

Does anyone know how the PPP is now done on the 02 WRX?

I think that it used to be a piggyback chip that was added to someone elses ECU and then they swapped it for yours when the PPP was done.

Nowadays (MY03) I belive it is done with the ECUTEK software.

Does the MY03 PPP work on the MY02 ? - I dont really want the piggyback chip version or someone elses ECU.

I know I could go right along and just have the ECUTEK done somewhere else, but as I have a UK car with full warrenty Id like to keep it, which means only Prodrive can do the work. Im sure subaru will be wiseing up to People just having the ECUTEK upgrade.

Thanks Andy

Yorkie

Its a replacement remapped chip ie someone elses. The MY03 PPP doesn't fit a MY01/2. However the conversion is a must IMHO as it transforms the car whilst keeping your warranty. Incidently the MY01/2 PPP develops 261 lb/ft of torque compared to compared to 257 for the MY03 PPP but power for the MY01/2 is 242 bhp compared to 261 bhp for the MY03.

i80386

Thanks for the info yorkie, is it possible for prodrive to re-chip my own ECU then ? - like if i go directly to them for the upgrade and leave the ECU with them or send it to them ? Im in no rush to have it done, and can manage without the car for a while.

I know it sounds sad but my own car has been perfect from new really. Its not fully loosened up yet (4000 miles) and seems to be getting better by the day - it did seem lazy at first, i thought id made a bit of a mistake by not test driving a CTR or 172 , but as i say its really starting to feel quick now.

Most peoples advice is that the PPP really makes the bug-eye a very good car, so I will likely have it done - im just concerned about replacing the ECU with someone elses when mine has been problem free.

Anyone got the mail addy of the guy called mike from prodrive who sometimes stops by these pages ? he may be able to give me more detailed info.

Thanks again Andy

Yorkie

Andy, honestly you have no problem having an exchange ecu. I understand your concerns but as the ecu is an electronic component (like a pc component) it has no mechanical parts that suffer from wear and tear. I had my PPP fitted a few months ago and I havent looked back since, it absolutely transforms an already brilliant car. Get it done you won't regret it. After all, everything is covered by 3 years warrranty anyway.

SKS

Andy,

PPP upgrade for the bugeye, as well as a new backbox and uprated intercooler pipework, is an additional circuit board (complete with additional ECU chip, wiring loom, connector block and EPROM port plug) which gets soldered into your existing ECU module and is mounted onto the existing PCB.
The bugeye uses a totally different ECU from the older cars. It's a much more sophisticated piece of kit and as such, the upgrade board and chip (Subaru type no. 44S/Q5/025) are particular to MY01/02 only. MY03 cars have a different ECU again and do use the EcuTek board for the PPP upgrade

I take it from the chat that you're more interested in the electronics side of the upgrade:

Takes approx. 10 mins to remove the existing module from the car and open it. Around 20-30 mins to prepare the board ready for the PPP ECU and then solder in the contacts (only 5 wires - power, earth and 3 controls),depending on how gifted you are with the old soldering iron! About 10 mins for the silicone glue to stiffen on the PPP board mounting feet then it's popped back into the car.
Robert's your fathers brother!

Bbox has to be fitted otherwise the map on the PPP ECU gets rather unhappy. It isn't life threatening or anything, just won't deliver anything like the performance it's mapped for. Dealer PPP upgrade also involves uprated intercooler hose as the std car stuff is rather nasty and it's fair to say the PPP runs a bit more boost.

As Yorkie says, transforms the car. Much more torque and the wider spread really improves the driveability of the car. 2nd and 3rd gear passing maneouvers now come with a huge grin factor and the engine will pull like a train up to 6000 rpm.

That all said, dealer takes around £1800 and 2-2.5 hours to fit it. Yes, it will keep your warranty valid and yes, it's now a PPP car for selling on, BUT....

It's £1800! I bought my PPP ECU and BB on this very site for £400, a set of Samco hoses for £100. Had my dealer fit the hoses and zorst, drove home and fitted the ECU. Car has been in for 2 services now and the dealer is none the wiser - no warranty issues and £1200 to spend on other goodies!

Also, if you're planning any other exhaust mods (which only invalidate the exhaust section from your warranty by the way - nothing else) or other things, be warned, the PPP ECU won't magically deliver loads more power. It was mapped to work with the Prodrive bbox which is restrictive for noise and emission regulations - hence only 245bhp. Changing bboxes or fitting decat sections etc will not generate additional horses, only strange holes in the powerband and flatspots in the midrange.

If you're going down the route of more upgrades at a later date (bear in mind your first MOT is in 3 years and cats can be refitted) and want the flexibility, £ for £ you could have a full SS exhaust, EcuTek chip/custom map, 285 fully safe horses and an exhaust note to intimidate lesser vehicles for less than the cost of the dealer fitted PPP. Also, according to Scoobysport and EcuTek, the upgrade doesn't show up on dealer diagnostic equipment so warranty issues would be as grey as you'd want to make them.

Hope this all helps mate.

Stewart.

PS If you want pictures/fitting instructions on the PPP ECU and how it's mounted, email me and I'll send you a document. Check out Scoobysport, EcuTek and John Banks (the God of ECUs) websites for even more info and seriously technical questions.

lucky_strike

Can certainly recommmend the PPP - got it on my MY02 WRX and its great BUT, I'm bitten by the modd'ing bug and want to decat and up and downpipes now as I'm used to the performance of the PPP.

SKS - my main concern is the warranty, but you mention that altering any other exhaust components will only invalidate the exhaust section of the warranty? This is encouraging me to go for it, its only the loosing the warranty element I'm concerned with.

The worst case scenario of a cam belt failing or similar and it causing loads of damage only to have Subaru UK refuse to fix under warranty because I have put more stress on the engine through fitting a different exhaust.

i80386

Great info guys, just the stuff im looing for.

SKS, iv looked into the ECUTEK route and it looks very good actually, it offers everything im after apart from the warranty.

I got some interesting advice off Pete Croney (scoobysport) after I suggested the possibility of changing the ECU code back to standard from Tek2 in the event of a major engine/gearbox problem. He advises it can be done but there is a counter within the ECU that logs software updates, so if you load the origional map back to the flash ROM, the counter is incrememted. Hehe, I guess they think of everything.

So the choice I am left with is PPP, which is good - but possibly slightly infirior to Tek2 and MUCH (almost a grand, at the end of the day !!) more expensive, or just have the Tek2 done and risk nothing ever going wrong with the engine/gearbox. I already have a Prodrive WR Sport back box and TBH I dont really see how they can be more restrictive (at my power level anyway) than most any other. They are DEFFO 'streight through' boxes with no baffles at all. I checked when I got mine by pushing a piece of wire through the pipework part to the start of the box, looked down the tailpipe and there the wire was. Sure there are some tightish bends, but they are no worst than any others ?

Anyways, any suggestions are welcome (MY02 PPP versus Tek2).

Thanks again Andy

Daz WRX

Defo the Tek2 for VFM, but personally I'd spend the saving on full decat and Tek3 instead. 285bhp
Just need to replace the Cat come MOT time, I think that there is a map for a semi de cat as well so if you kep the downpipe cat in place you pass the MOT and you can have a decent map Tek2.5??

Daz.

SKS

Hi again guys!

Lucky,

The information re the invalidation of the exhaust section of the warranty is straight from the horses mouth - my local dealer!
They fit everything from bboxes to full decat systems for customers. The only part of the warranty affected is a claim on an exhaust component. Essentially altering these components doesn't stress the engine. If anything, they destress it as backpressure is released making the engine in effect more efficient so it then generates the same bhp at lower revs/pressures. It isn't a mechanical modification. Altering things like dump valves and turbos can have a way different effect on engine warranty issues though.
I know that some manufacturers (who mentioned BMW?) see things like changing your air freshner as a "getout" clause on any - no matter how unrelated - warranty issue, but Subaru aren't like that.

Andy,

Interesting info about the ROM counting software updates...didn't know that, Cheers!
On your Prodrive zorst, yes it is in essence a straight through pipe, but the problem (like so many things in life!) is size. The Prodrive bbox only runs a 50mm diameter pipe - 10mm less than the 60mm on the rest of the system. This basically chokes the flow of gas at the rear of the exhaust system something rotten! You're better off with a Prodrive P1 bbox (if you want to stay with genuine Subaru parts)for flowing more gas.
That said about the Prodrive bbox, as I mentioned, it's an unfortunately essential part of the PPP upgrade as the mapping is so specific, but if you're going the other route, ditch it!

Re the EcuTek route, as long as you have it fitted by an approved supplier (see their website for local agents), then the same safety margins as your current factory module can still be built in. Bear in mind, this is the beauty of the EcuTek. As they have cracked all the maps in the original ECU, it can be programmed for out and out bhp (at the expense of engine life) or with full safety in mind on a full decat exhaust say. It will be your set up.

And one final word to help ease your fears. I'm on my fourth Impreza, all of which have endured some kind of performance upgrading. In my experience, as long as the cars are serviced regularly by someone (dealer or Scooby specialist) who knows these cars well, nothing (MAF sensors aside, but that's well documented and isn't remotely serious) goes wrong with them. Mechanically, they really are superb machines.

Again, hope this helps guys.

Cheers,

Stewart.

MikeWood

Stewart

Unfortunately your dealer is not the 'horses mouth' when it comes to deciding on the validity of a potential warranty claim. Changing various elements of the exhaust can have a huge effect on how the engine is working and some are not positive either. I believe that Subaru are now inspecting all turbo vehicles that have engine related warranty claims.

Changing the downpipe design, whether there is a catalyst fitted or not may allow boost to rise quicker than the ECU is mapped for with huge implications for engine safety.

Similarly changing the spec of a car fitted with a performance package may give other problems that may not be immediately apparent. One thing that most people would not even think about is actually a common scenario with taking WRX models further than the PPP takes it. The injectors are getting close to 100% duty cycle and as they get closer to these figures they start to work less efficiently which means the mixture could be getting leaner than is strictly 'safe' for long term durability. This is great for power as it picks up slightly as the mixture leans out, hence the apparently good results by changing up-pipe and downpipe. The problem comes when there is anything that the ECU doesn't like that causes it to need to run on the high-det map which amongst other things asks for more fuel. As the injectors are near or possibly even at capacity there is no more fuel to give. How many times have we heard 'my car was going really well, just before it blew up!!!'

Reference the exhaust fitted as part of the performance package, the diameter of the perforated tube through the silencer is the same as the bore size of the rest of the system, 63mm. I believe that even the H&S Scoobysport silencer was the same, I'm sure Pete will confirm this.

And by the way, a faulty MAF can quite easily wreck an engine....

Mike

i80386

AAAhhhAAAA

Mike, now I have your attention, can you tell me one way or the other - can I have the PPP done and keep my own ECU ?

Another point thats strange, PPP normally involves swapping the ECU. Im sure I have read somewhere that the transponders in the car keys are set to the particular ECU, or maybe the other way round. Does anyone know if this is the case ?

I know this is off the origional topic, bare with me Im a n00b :-)

Thanks Andy

MikeWood

Andy

You will not be able to keep the ECU that was originally fitted to your car. It will however be identical to the std one fitted to everyone else's car so it's not a problem. All that happens is that the keys are recoded to suit.

Regards

Mike

Pete Croney

Mike

There's lots of scare mongering in there but one fact cannot be ignored, not one car worldwide with an EcuTek remap has failed. And some of these are running enormous power.

Another fact is that the 01-02 PPP was a crude piggy back chip and restrictor change. The restrictor was there to get boost up higher and generate it more quickly than the standard map was expecting. From there its was down to the ecu's correction tables to sort everything out. You are saying that it was fine for the ecu to sort out the quicker spool up with your piggy back, but not from fitting a downpipe that only improved spool up and did not generate higher boost figures.

The last time we discussed 01-03 MAFs neither you nor I had heard of one failure. I still have not.

The 01-03 ecus are so adaptive that great things are possible from these cars. The self learning routines cope with any exhaust combination I have seen in complete safety. The fact that the cars were safe with your piggy back and my up pipe and downpipe, giving approx 280bhp is testimony to just how adaptive they are.

With your blue and yellow hat on, I realise that you will be towing the company line, but plenty of people will not wish to be bound what someone in Rhyder Street was all they could have, especially when many hundreds of people safely use much more. The EcuTek software has revolutionised what can be achieved from these cars and as a result they are being succesfully upgraded into true supercar slayers, with 100% reliability.

The perforated tube in our exhaust is 63mm ID

i80386

OH S }{ I T !!! The big boys are here !!

Think my minds made up, to go with the ECUTEK upgrade.
Mike thanks for your responses. I would love to have a subaru approved PPP done on the MY02 with the ECUTEK software like the MY03 has, but I know its not an option and would be more trouble for prodrive than its worth to change from the piggyback type to ECUTEK for MY01-02.

As shown by the responses above there are pleanty of folks who are happy with the '01-02 PPP as it is. In its day it was probably the best way to upgrade power safely. But I think its now been superceeded, even prodrive have moved to ECUTEK. One thing I will say for prodrive gear - the back box I have is very good, Iv seen some of the H&S back boxes, maybe its the old ones I dunno, but the quality is frankly embarasing compared with my WR Sport, also I can confirm its far more than 50mm internal diameter and sounds really nice without being TOOOO LOOUUUDDDD !!

Pete, im saving up to come and see you and pat to see what you can do for me......... You are a long way from Sheffield, but im sure the trip will be worth it ;-)

One more thing if I may, as you can see one of my main concerns is reliability, you said in you mail that you would always advise custom mapping (SS Map 3?) compared to the SS Map 2. As the SS Map3 produces more power, is it more likeley to blow the something?

Guess what Im trying to say is that Id rather have slightly less power (SS2) and more reliablitily than go ***** out (SS3) and blow something, especially as i will be loosing my warrenty. I see on your site that both the maps are the same price ~:-|, dont the custom map take longer to do?


Andy

lucky_strike

I keep swaying to and fro on the de-cat route for my 02 WRX which is PPP'ed (piggyback!).

One day I'm all for it and about to get it booked in, then the other I see a Prodrive comment on injectors and fuel pumps not being man enough for the job....and then there's the warranty aspect.

Damn the Scooby for being so easy to mod and offering so much potential. Should have stuck with my Golf 4Motion and been happy in my ignorance to the lure of the Scoob.

Anyone got any experience of how a decatted PPP'ed car will handle high miles. I mainly drive motorway stuff with the odd spirited a-road diversion. Probably do 22,000 miles a year. Am I being daft considering the decat?

Choices choices choices.