Problem starting when hot
10 June 2003, 12:31 PM
#1
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Hi,
Twice now (in a couple of months) my car has failed to start when hot. There are no warning signs beforehand i.e. it drives fine but when left for about 15 minutes it has on two occasions refused to start up. Initially it will run (only just) but sounds like it's misfiring and pumping the gas makes no difference. It will do this for about 30 seconds then cut out and from then on it will refuse to start (just turns over but wont fire).
The first time it did this I left it for about 30mins and then it started fine
but last night it took over 2 hours before it would start again so I had to call the AA out. I thought it might be the crank position sensor but it was sparking fine and I did an engine diag check and was getting the normal signal (but this was after I got home and the car was running fine again), maybe I need to do the check when the car wont start (couldn't remember how to at the time!).
It basically appeared as if it wasn't getting ANY fuel (full tank) as when the AA dude sprayed a bit of easy start at my K&N filter (which can't be that good for the engine!) it ran for a few seconds on the easy start.
Car is a MY97 UK.
Any ides?
Jamie
Twice now (in a couple of months) my car has failed to start when hot. There are no warning signs beforehand i.e. it drives fine but when left for about 15 minutes it has on two occasions refused to start up. Initially it will run (only just) but sounds like it's misfiring and pumping the gas makes no difference. It will do this for about 30 seconds then cut out and from then on it will refuse to start (just turns over but wont fire).
The first time it did this I left it for about 30mins and then it started fine
but last night it took over 2 hours before it would start again so I had to call the AA out. I thought it might be the crank position sensor but it was sparking fine and I did an engine diag check and was getting the normal signal (but this was after I got home and the car was running fine again), maybe I need to do the check when the car wont start (couldn't remember how to at the time!).It basically appeared as if it wasn't getting ANY fuel (full tank) as when the AA dude sprayed a bit of easy start at my K&N filter (which can't be that good for the engine!) it ran for a few seconds on the easy start.
Car is a MY97 UK.
Any ides?
Jamie
10 June 2003, 12:54 PM
#2
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although it sounds daft
check cam and crank sensors again
feul pump? **** in fuel lines, fuel system connections, loose wires although latter wouldnt happen if only on hot.
my favorite is still cam and crank though
morgan
check cam and crank sensors again
feul pump? **** in fuel lines, fuel system connections, loose wires although latter wouldnt happen if only on hot.
my favorite is still cam and crank though
morgan
10 June 2003, 02:12 PM
#4
Jamie - I think Morgan's right. I have similar problems with my UK98, see: http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...hreadid=216579
Upshot with mine seems to be - wait & see when it dies then we can find what's broken!
Cheers,
Steve
Upshot with mine seems to be - wait & see when it dies then we can find what's broken!
Cheers,
Steve
10 June 2003, 02:45 PM
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Hi Steve,
yeah that sounds similar, the only thing is mine doesn't stall - it was running fine until I turned it off then played up when I attempted to restart it.
When you say it ran for 30secs how did it run - mine ran really sketchy and the revs wouldn't go over 500rpm, then once it cut out after 30secs it wouldn't restart at all. But like I said I had a spark, would this be the case if the crank sensor was dodgy?
I guess I need to wait until it happens again and do the engine light test, but I'm worried about being stranded somewhere - just need to make sure I don't turn my car off unless I'm prepared to stay there for a couple of hours!
Jamie
PS This'll make you laugh - the AA chap's take on my intercooler:
"No mate, I think you'll find that's an intercooler!"
Inspired me with confidence...... NOT!
yeah that sounds similar, the only thing is mine doesn't stall - it was running fine until I turned it off then played up when I attempted to restart it.
When you say it ran for 30secs how did it run - mine ran really sketchy and the revs wouldn't go over 500rpm, then once it cut out after 30secs it wouldn't restart at all. But like I said I had a spark, would this be the case if the crank sensor was dodgy?
I guess I need to wait until it happens again and do the engine light test, but I'm worried about being stranded somewhere - just need to make sure I don't turn my car off unless I'm prepared to stay there for a couple of hours!
Jamie
PS This'll make you laugh - the AA chap's take on my intercooler:
That's another air filter there...
Inspired me with confidence...... NOT!
10 June 2003, 03:25 PM
#6
Jamie - LMAO at the AA guy. Kinda glad I'm with the RAC then - although knowing my luck they'd ask why I've got a toast rack fitted to the block!
Unfortunately I wasn't there when the car played up - my girlfriend was using it whilst I was in London! Guess how keen she was to phone me and say 'there's something wrong with the scoob!' She just remembers that it started, ran, and shut down - not sure if it ran rough.
Not sure about the spark, I'm certainly no expert. The way it was explained to me was simply that the cam & crank sensor can send different readings to the ECU. E.g. the cam sensor says 1000 rpm and the crank sensor says 2000 so the ECU goes: 'does not compute' and refuses to start the car. I guess there wouldn't be a spark in that case.
Might be worth giving someone like TSL, ScoobySport, or Xtreme Scoobies a quick call for more technical advice to see if you can pin it down more.
Good luck!
By the way, what's the engine light test?
Cheers,
Steve
Unfortunately I wasn't there when the car played up - my girlfriend was using it whilst I was in London! Guess how keen she was to phone me and say 'there's something wrong with the scoob!'
She just remembers that it started, ran, and shut down - not sure if it ran rough.Not sure about the spark, I'm certainly no expert. The way it was explained to me was simply that the cam & crank sensor can send different readings to the ECU. E.g. the cam sensor says 1000 rpm and the crank sensor says 2000 so the ECU goes: 'does not compute' and refuses to start the car. I guess there wouldn't be a spark in that case.
Might be worth giving someone like TSL, ScoobySport, or Xtreme Scoobies a quick call for more technical advice to see if you can pin it down more.
Good luck!
By the way, what's the engine light test?
Cheers,
Steve
10 June 2003, 03:30 PM
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Steve,
See here for details of how to do the ECU diagnostic test. I got the all clear when I did it but by then the car had started and was running ok...
Hope your problem was just a one off!
Jamie
See here for details of how to do the ECU diagnostic test. I got the all clear when I did it but by then the car had started and was running ok...
Hope your problem was just a one off!
Jamie
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10 June 2003, 05:17 PM
#8
Thanks for that Jamie - good site!
Only bit I don't understand is the second step: "Connect read memory connectors (jumper 5) [black connectors]"
Not sure what I'm looking at here, or on the dash image the link goes to?
Must admit I've never really fiddled with electrics - being colour blind doesn't help!
Cheers,
Steve
Only bit I don't understand is the second step: "Connect read memory connectors (jumper 5) [black connectors]"
Not sure what I'm looking at here, or on the dash image the link goes to?
Must admit I've never really fiddled with electrics - being colour blind doesn't help!
Cheers,
Steve
10 June 2003, 06:40 PM
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Steve,
The connectors are up under the steering column, to the left. There will be two black and two green plastic connectors. The green ones go together and the black ones go together so doesn't matter if you're colour blind!
Connecting the black ones does the diags, connecting the green ones puts all the valves in a cycle mode and connecting them all resets the ECU (once the car has been driven a short distance). The wires might be taped up though - were on mine.
I've been having a look at some of the sensors on my car and the crank sensor looked pretty dirty - would this be a problem? I've cleaned it along with the cam sensor and a few other connections so will see what happens. Car still starts at the moment so that's the main thing!
Here is what the sensor looked like before I cleaned it:
Jamie
The connectors are up under the steering column, to the left. There will be two black and two green plastic connectors. The green ones go together and the black ones go together so doesn't matter if you're colour blind!
Connecting the black ones does the diags, connecting the green ones puts all the valves in a cycle mode and connecting them all resets the ECU (once the car has been driven a short distance). The wires might be taped up though - were on mine.I've been having a look at some of the sensors on my car and the crank sensor looked pretty dirty - would this be a problem? I've cleaned it along with the cam sensor and a few other connections so will see what happens. Car still starts at the moment so that's the main thing!
Here is what the sensor looked like before I cleaned it:
Jamie
10 June 2003, 08:03 PM
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Jamie,
all ok now I hope, feel guilty for leaving you although guilt now subsiding as I left early behind the P1s.
what did you have in your garage spare? cant remember now but at the time I was overjoyed as it was just what I was looking for.
short term memory aint what it used to be eh??
Andy
all ok now I hope, feel guilty for leaving you although guilt now subsiding as I left early behind the P1s.
what did you have in your garage spare? cant remember now but at the time I was
overjoyed as it was just what I was looking for.short term memory aint what it used to be eh??
Andy
11 June 2003, 12:37 AM
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Oh yeah I know it was a K&N panel filter but not sure if it will fit - anyone know? MY97 -> MY99
Took the car down to Gunwharf tonight went fine and started no probs come home time (was 4 hours later though). Off up to London tomorrow so we'll see what happens - she won't be impressed if we get stuck at some Shell garage on the M25 for 2 hours.
J
Took the car down to Gunwharf tonight went fine and started no probs come home time (was 4 hours later though). Off up to London tomorrow so we'll see what happens - she won't be impressed if we get stuck at some Shell garage on the M25 for 2 hours.
J
11 June 2003, 02:19 AM
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I will most likely be the crank angle sensor that is the problem, the one you have is the suspect type, unfortunately the most common type at the moment.
The new ones that have a female plug don't cause the same problems nor do the old ones with the cable as part of the sensor with the plug on the end of the cable
The new ones that have a female plug don't cause the same problems nor do the old ones with the cable as part of the sensor with the plug on the end of the cable
11 June 2003, 10:11 AM
#14
Cheers for the info Jamie - I probably won't go digging around under the dash unless I have to, but it's nice to know what to look for.
That sure is a grubby sensor - can't see how a clean up would hurt. Might take mine out too to see what they're like.
Hope you don't enjoy the 'hospitality' of the M25 services for too long!
Cheers,
Steve
That sure is a grubby sensor - can't see how a clean up would hurt. Might take mine out too to see what they're like.
Hope you don't enjoy the 'hospitality' of the M25 services for too long!
Cheers,
Steve
11 June 2003, 12:06 PM
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I was experiencing this - just had 10K service MY02 - the dealer checked it out on the monitor and it turned out to be a fault with the immobiliser on the key fob.
T.
13 June 2003, 08:01 PM
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Well, been to Brighton via London and back over the last couple of days and the car didn't falter once. Always started fine including quite a few hot/warm starts.
Went so well in fact I think I might have got caught speeding on the M23
. It was a cop car on the side of the motorway and the guy had a handheld camera thing, think I was doing about 85-90mph. But don't they normally get you after the next junction? Saw loads of bikes that had been pulled over on the hard shoulder so maybe I got away with it? Not looking forward to seeing the postman for the next couple of weeks though!
I doubt it was just a dirty sensor/connection which was causing my problem but I'll carry on regardless until (if) it happens again.
Jamie
Went so well in fact I think I might have got caught speeding on the M23
. It was a cop car on the side of the motorway and the guy had a handheld camera thing, think I was doing about 85-90mph. But don't they normally get you after the next junction? Saw loads of bikes that had been pulled over on the hard shoulder so maybe I got away with it? Not looking forward to seeing the postman for the next couple of weeks though!I doubt it was just a dirty sensor/connection which was causing my problem but I'll carry on regardless until (if) it happens again.
Jamie
19 July 2003, 09:41 PM
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Jamie,
got a similar thing as well
last few times turmned on the ingintion (hehe) and cel lights up cranks but no go...
reset alarm and ok
did it agian today and same but took bloody ages before it would fire... drove home ok did notive which gave me a clue
when it started it was fine no spluutering so the logical side says no fuel being delivered...
tried at home and found out somthing interesting...
when i start normally and turn the iginition on i get a high pitched wine approx 3 seconds and a relay clicks car will start ok
no whine or click no start... now my wifes car does this also.. its almost like a pc carrys out a post test... what we need is some tech bod to give the ecu,s startup sequence then you can checkout the various sensors
i think the click is the immobiliser box triggering cos its in that area of the dash
I have a dignostic article which covers some of the fauls scoobys have , i will zip this and send to you if you like
Mart
if you want post reply in general or this one
got a similar thing as well
last few times turmned on the ingintion (hehe) and cel lights up cranks but no go...
reset alarm and ok
did it agian today and same but took bloody ages before it would fire... drove home ok did notive which gave me a clue
when it started it was fine no spluutering so the logical side says no fuel being delivered...
tried at home and found out somthing interesting...
when i start normally and turn the iginition on i get a high pitched wine approx 3 seconds and a relay clicks car will start ok
no whine or click no start... now my wifes car does this also.. its almost like a pc carrys out a post test... what we need is some tech bod to give the ecu,s startup sequence then you can checkout the various sensors
i think the click is the immobiliser box triggering cos its in that area of the dash
I have a dignostic article which covers some of the fauls scoobys have , i will zip this and send to you if you like
Mart
if you want post reply in general or this one
20 July 2003, 06:40 PM
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Hi MArt
I've had this fixed now, but only after breaking down in London last weekend!
It was just as you said - normally get a 3 second buzz and relay click but last weekend this was not happening.
Turns out it was a dodgy connection on one of the fuel pump wires so the engine was not getting any fuel. I saw on another thread that the fuel pump only gets 12v for 3 seconds so that explains the whine when u turn on the ignition.
Didn't need a new fuel pump in the end, just had the wiring repaired and now it's fine...
As ColinC said, had it been a fault with one of the crank sensors you would not expect a spark.
Thanks for the help though, hope this helps get your problem fixed.
J
I've had this fixed now, but only after breaking down in London last weekend!
It was just as you said - normally get a 3 second buzz and relay click but last weekend this was not happening.
Turns out it was a dodgy connection on one of the fuel pump wires so the engine was not getting any fuel. I saw on another thread that the fuel pump only gets 12v for 3 seconds so that explains the whine when u turn on the ignition.
Didn't need a new fuel pump in the end, just had the wiring repaired and now it's fine...
As ColinC said, had it been a fault with one of the crank sensors you would not expect a spark.
Thanks for the help though, hope this helps get your problem fixed.
J
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