john banks

Mark I'm talking about the MD304 in particular, but the TD04 also had had high charge temperatures on the top mount. Probably something to do with me running them both at 1.4 bar. The simple fact of the matter is that if you compress air you make it hotter even if the turbo is 100% efficient. Like comparing FMIC vs WI, or big turbo vs FMIC, we really benefit from them all - they do different tasks.

Seeing a few biggish VF turbo around Knockhill, the charge temps on the same intercooler and higher boost were at least 10 degrees C cooler than a TD04 on the same day with the same measuring equipment driven similarly hard, and would have been even more so if they were compared at the same boost. Trouble is when someone fits a big turbo they tend to run more boost and the bottleneck moves elsewhere.

[Edited by john banks - 12/4/2002 2:39:12 PM]

X SOOOBY

as the topic sais what is it best to get first i do plan to have both but what is better first

dhorwich

FMIC..!! as you cant really run a big turbo on the small intercooler...!!!

Dan

tweenierob

2nd that
Rob

Katana

Thirded. Our TMIC can barely handle increased boost in our cars, let alone a bigger turbo..

MrContro

Hi mate,

Assuming your car currently has a standard turbo on, it depends what model car you have which will in turn determine what size of turbo you've currently got.

If your car is a pre 97(UK & WRX) model then it should have the TD05 which is plenty big enough unless you wanna go for crazy power(and crazy money for possible uprated internals to cope with boost/power).

If its post 96(UK & WRX) then chances are that it will have the smaller TD04 turbo and will eventually be the limiting factor on the power you will be able to get out of the engine.

Not sure about the turbos on STI's

I would say if the turbo is small swap it, if the turbo is big get FMIC. but there could be better things to spend money on first.

I must say though its a difficult question to answer not knowing the current mods/state of tune its not really just a case of slap a bigger turbo or intercooler on and whack you boost up or you end up damaging the engine.

Cheers

R19KET

I would agree that it would depend on what car, and other mods you have.

Small TD04 turbo + high boost is very inefficient = lot's of hot air.

Add a FMIC, and you'll still have a very inefficient turbo, being driven even harder, but the FMIC will help. It will also be more laggy.

Fit a bigger turbo, run it at the same boost as the smaller turbo, and it will run cooler.

If you run pretty much standard boost, I'd go for a turbo. If you run higher boost on a TD05, I'd go for the FMIC, but probably only after doing the Straight entry mod.

If you have a TD04, and run high boost, you'd still probably be better off getting a bigger turbo, and turning the boost down a little.

Mark.

X SOOOBY

i have a my00 full decat a cold air kit and a tech2 fitted i did have a tech2.5 but beleive it or not it didn`t work on my car j.b. said that my car was working to it`s max capabilities and extra fueling boost was extra hot air as mr contro has said

thus a bigger turbo or front mount is the question from what you have all said a front mount would be the best starting point but then maybe i should get both at the same time and get it mapped so i may have to wait a little longer to get some pennies

dowser

As mentioned above, a bigger turbo running the same boost will lower your charge temperature. So it depends on your goals to an extent - I've so far run a vf23 and a td05 with a tmic successfully at up to 1.3 bar. A fmic will give more power again without a doubt, and enable me to raise boost pressure as well. But by this time you're looking at larger injectors or increased fuel pressure too.

You'll need a remap to control boost with the new turbo - even if you go with an MBC for the boost, optimised fuelling and timing should occur to get the best. I *doubt* it would be dangerous without a remap, but it should be checked regardless (normally needs more fuel during spool).

Richard

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Mark.... are you saying that it's best to do the front entry mod on a TD05 before a FMIC. I was going to do it this way but a lot of people said im best getting the FMIC???

Tony.

john banks

Mark (X-Scooby Mark ) I tried one of Mark's (R19KET) hybrid turbos on my car and with an uprated TMIC I still had charge temperature problems, possibly because I was running it at 1.4 bar. With a lot of custom mapping work after a FMIC it was quicker at lower boost and nice and cool.

R19KET

A lot depends on what you're trying to achieve.

The TD04 has to work VERY hard to achieve circa 1.4bar, and it will be very inefficient, producing a very hot air charge temp.

If you fit a FMIC, this will of course cool the charge after the IC. This cooler, denser charge now takes up less volume than the hotter air, and you get a pressure drop. So now, the turbo is having to work even harder, just to maintain the same pressure.

You could easily find that the turbo, is actually runnng at anything upto .3bar higher than your boost gauge is showing.

This is why in some cases, you will actually GAIN power, by reducing boost.

If you run a turbo, and keep it within it's efficiency map, and then add a FMIC, you will gain power, but with a TD04, you will also gain lag, or spool up time.

Then people want to turn up the boost, in an attempt to reduce the lag..........

Ideally, yes, fit a bigger turbo, and FMIC together, but not everyone is in a position to do this.

Now, if you already have a bigger turbo, and run sensible boost, it will be running cooler, and a FMIC would be a better option.

So much depends on the car spec', boost, proper re-map !!!

John,

We have to put things into context. Are you talking about the TD04 Hybrid prototype, or the MD304 ?

There will be a point, where regardless of the turbo, you will need a FMIC to keep the intake temps under control.

My Garrett turbo is so big, that on a 2.0lt, it would be almost undrivable, let alone worry about intake temps, but on my car, even with a FMIC, I suspect I will need to get a more efficient custom one built.

Mark.

R19KET

Like I said, it gets to a point, where you have no choice.

How did the EGT's compare between the TD04, and MD304.

Personally, I run a big turbo, FMIC, and water injection, but then I'm a YOB, just like you

Mark.

X SOOOBY

so it looks like i will go big turbo route so the next question is where is the best place to get one from

thanks for your replies very informative

also i would like to say thanks to john for his very fair service that he gave me his gaurantee that if you are not happy with his product then he will refund your money and postage as well

so even though it didn`t work for me i would certainly reccomend him when i get the big turbo fmount i will certainly be going back for a remap

nom

A good start for a turbo is Mark (R19KET)!

john banks

Best place to get one is from R19KET above (Lateralperformance), and get a fuel pump from him whilst you are there too - anything beyond the original turbo and the fuel pressure will probably drop.

Re EGTs, in the end I left the probe in so I wouldn't have a hole in my headers, but to be honest I've not checked it in ages - I use an RS51 meter to plug in if I want to look at it.

I thought from what everyone said that the EGT would be useful in addition to the AFR in determining what fuelling to run and seeing how the advance was affecting things. However, the EGT gave me no idea when I was rich/lean/advanced/retarded or when I was detting. I found the two most useful things have been the knocklink (checked with earphones) and the wideband O2. The EGT I could never get any sense out of to actually affect a tuning decision - it was always reading OK even when the map was nowhere near right. Maybe I'm just a philistine, but I found it a waste of time. Also would be difficult to compare the EGTs as I used completely different maps, and along the way changed to FMIC, 550s etc and can't remember now, but it always seemed to be between 740 and 780 C no matter what I did - this is at the bottom of the up-pipe. How do you use your EGTs Mark?

R19KET

John,

One of the problems with just tuning with an AFR meter, is that whilst the fuelling can be spot on the AFR you're aiming for, you could be running dangerously high EGT's.

This would normally mean, that either the ignition needs to be advanced, or, regardless of what your AFR meter says, you need to run more fuel, and lastly, you may need a colder plug.

This assumes that the lambda sensor (wide, or narrow) is reading correctly in the first place !!!!

It's not so much of a problem if you are mapping pretty standard cars, with mod's you're used to, and the map is what you would expect it to be.

It's when you get a mapping anomaly, or a list of mod's that you're not familiar with.

Mark.

Pavlo

Also worth noting that even a perfect turbo will create heat when compressing the air. If you are creating a steady stream of compressed air it requires work to be done on the air.

Think about a bicycle pump, no hot gases or turbine housings, but you will en up with a warm pump. All the physical energy going into compressing each unit of air, gets transfered to that air in the form of heat.

Upshot is, you will get heating of the air even with a supercharger.

That said I personally would go with the bigger turbo, and not try to run it at 1.4bar.

Paul

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Agree that EGT's arent so useful in tuning generally, but more a safety indicator, during sustained full load running, while fuel etc may be good, the temps can rise, which could give an indication of potential melt down. With ignition timing, running close to knock, isnt always the place for maximum power, but then retarding too far will cause EGT's to rise, which is bad. There are cars that will run in excess of 10:1 AFR, simply to keep things cool, which may not seem the best thing for power, but it does happen, and it works for them.
Still Ive never really found any definative info on what temps are regarded as dangerous, for a particular position in the exhaust system, be it close to the valve, before turbo, or after turbo. All of which will give quite different readings.
Still, any info on how things are running cant be a bad thing.