chiark

edited, not helpful to the original q...

[Edited by chiark - 10/4/2002 9:14:06 AM]

David Lock

Chiark. Fair enough but I think you are being a bit harsh. I was simply trying to shortcut my usual answer which is that Broquet effectively but not actually raises the octane level in the sense that an engine using Broquet fuel will run as well on a slightly lower octane than it would otherwise require but if you removed the petrol and tested the octane it would probably be the same level. In other words you can in a sense categorise Broquet as an octane booster as it has the same effect.

I'll be more careful next time..... David

BTW. The short answer to Banzai's 2nd post is "Yes it would".






[Edited by David Lock - 10/4/2002 9:37:01 AM]

mutant_matt

Matt

[Edited by mutant_matt - 10/8/2002 6:49:29 PM]

BanzaiGTti

I live in Singapore and have got an STi V Type R. I understand that the ECU's programmed to take 100 RON. The best juice we got here is 98 RON.

I'm wondering if a Broquet in-tank unit would help raise the octane level?


Opinions please. Thanks!

David Lock

Yes it would. Strictly it will not raise the octane but rather allow the engine to run well on a lower octane than it would otherwise require. Why not contact our Singapore office - Universal Consultants on tel 65 6743 1166. Have a look at their site at www.broquet.com.sg The link to the WRX STi vs EVO 6 in 246 km/hr street race is a bit of fun. Broquet is used extensively in Scoobs and was fitted as standard equipment in all P1s for example. Get back to me if you need any more info. David Lock (UK Broquet Distributor).

chiark

question: will broquet raise the octane level

Answer
Without wanting to discuss semantics, that's a "no" then in my book?????

BanzaiGTti

Thanks for a prompt reply.

I have been in contact with Universal Consultants. I'm just seeking a 2nd opinion .

The problem is, my car needs to run 100 RON which 98 isn't so i'm wondering if Broquet will at least raise the octane level a bit. I am familiar with the fact that it will DEFINITELY raise the octane level for 92 or 95 RON, but will it do the same for 98?

I was offered to place 4 B8 in my tank.

chiark

Cool, cheers for that David. It's just **** retentive old me stirring again.

Intrigued to see that you're now able to openly say that the P1 used broquets. I don't suppose you've got any of Subaru's research available that you can share have you? That could be a great help to convince the unbelievers!

Cheers,

Nick.

David Lock

Hi Nick. I think it's just a bit early in the morning for both of us -) I now mention the P1 issue only after it was confirmed by our venerable webmaster in the last Broquet saga on this board. Simon did try to seek more info on the actual testing but I don't think anything came of it. I even sent Sideways a unit to test himself and report back but nothing so far. David

Pavlo

then it does raise the octane

octane number is just a dimensionless measure of knock resistance, it's not a quantitive indication of any paticular tangible chemical property.

CataIunya

So after all this will improve performance or reduce knock ?
Will it have any effect on a UK car ? or a tuned UK car ?

chiark

Oooh, I sense a big debate here...

uxg

I have just done a search on the subject Broquet and there have been loads of huge debates on this but out of it all (yes I have read through quite a few), we still can't get a clear cut answer to the question that everyone wants answered which is.

IS THERE ANY CLEAR AND CONCISIVE INDEPENDENT DATA TO INDICATE THAT THE USE OF THE BROQUET PRODUCTS WILL ENABLE PEOPLE WITH JAPANESE SPEC CARS WHICH REQUIRE 100 RON PETROL TO RUN SAFEFLY WIHOUT THE RISK OF DET ON 97 RON FUEL.

Sorry for shouting but I thought I had to make this point clear because basically if this can be proven then I think the world and his uncle (well at least several thousand japanese performance car owners) would be beating a path to the Broquet door if it meant that they wouldn't need to go through the hassle of buying and putting in Octane booster every time they needed to fill up with petrol which on a Scoob and most other jap performance cars is very often. I for one find this to be a major hassle and would gladly pay the price if I could avoid this procedure, safe in the knowledge that my engine wasn't going to blow up.

Anyone else agree?

David Lock

I don't know if this helps but following is a post from Bob Rawle who I am sure will not mind my pasting it in here as it was posted on the board. I apologise for the cut and paste but I don't have the link to the original post. David
=======
"I have used Broquet in both Imprezas that I have owned. I too got curious about what it was claimed to do and invested really to find out. At the time I had Sti 2 Wagon running with Link ecu (later Motec), HKS Hiper, Scoobysport downpipe, HKS induction kit etc. I was really interested in seeing if I could use Broquet to increase fuel quality enough so that I could run more ignition advance. The reduction in Ron rating from 98 to 97 (SUL) had necessitated my retarding my timing by several degrees and I was keen to get it back.
I installed the Broquet with a virtually empty tank for safety reasons, drove to the nearest garage for SUL (round trip of 20 miles or so). Driving back I started to notice differences, idle quality improved, engine ran more smoothly, car felt more willing to pull and more flexible. Over the next few weeks I monitored fuel consumption and did get an improvement, not by the 9% some people have mentioned but I certainly got 5%, bear in mind that this is over my "normal" terrain where I use the performance of the car to the full as well as cruise. I found that I had to reduce the fuel map values in order to maintain my optimum AFR. Timing ... well I tried to advance it up, the engine had a higher compression ratio than a saloon so as soon as I pushed it the big red light went off, it was purely down to charge temperature increase due to the boost I was running (1.4 bar) and the small early intercooler. Then I started to use booster as well and was able to make small increases in timing but the charge temperature of the small intercooler was still the limiting factor. I covered some 35000 miles with Broquet in the tank with that car.
I now own a STi 5 four door running with programmable engine management and other goodies. I installed Broquet two weeks ago.
I had already mapped the ecu with as much advance as I reasonably could and was again interested in whether Broquet would make a difference to this car. Same installation process, drive to the same garage after and got exactly the same improvement in all areas on the way back home, car was very much smoother and really felt willing to go. I had already taken a dyno curve of the "before" and waited a week to get the "after". I did the comparison with exactly the same map in the ecu. I was hoping for a power improvement ... I didn't actually get that, what I did get was a very quiet Knocklink, before fitting I would get a couple of steady lights up above 5800 rpm, now nothing. So no increase in power but I felt the opportunity to raise the anti by increasing timing. Since then I have changed the turbo again and so maybe this is not a fair statement but I have been able to increase timing since then and the car is now producing some 20 odd comparative horsepower more than before (lots more torque though). As I say, I am not sure how much of that is down to the turbo change but what I can say is that I certainly was able to advance it up by 1-2 degrees.
So sorry for the epistle but having spent quite a lot of time and effort in attempting to determine its benefits I though that some of you may find this post of interest.
My conclusion is ... engine runs more smoothly, fuel consumption improves in like for like driving situations, performance may be increased if programmable management is used. In short its a benefit and worth the money IMHO.
BTW, Broquet in P1’s? The P1 is quoted as having 276 bhp at 6500 rpm and 259 ft lb at 4000 rpm "using 100 Ron fuel". Given the best UK fuel is 97 Ron and I have established that Broquet will allow an engine to run more optimally then I would say its a fair bet, Subaru quote "only" 3 degrees of det retard when running on 95 Ron, that means yes it dets but that the ecu compensates, given my own experience of mapping for 95 Ron use then normally going from 97 to 95 Ron means approx 4 degree retardation is required, as the car is obviously optimised for 100 Ron then something like Broquet must be used to achieve the desired result in the UK. Just my opinion.
Bob

One or two further comments.
You need to do circa 200 ish miles or so to get the pellets working fully, I noticed it after 30 miles but waited for the 200 minimum before doing my "after" tests.
The main reason that I did not get a "power increase" after fitting was that I kept my ecu maps the same. As I run from the maps the timing does not alter under most conditions (dependent on my temperature compensation settings of course) so I was not surprised at that. What I have been able to do is run more timing up to the det limit than without it so in "real" terms and if I was using an ecu that always tried to advance up (i.e. Bosch management) then there would be a power increase.
Shaun, I can't say whether it increases Ron, its certainly worth installing though IMHO. I actually use booster to ensure that is the case in addition to Broquet but the Broquet is allowing me to take some extra steps. I did try that experiment with the Wagon and wasn't able to compensate with Broquet alone. Unfortunately it would take too much work to try it again with the "5".
My cruise area of the fuel map is now running at a slightly lower level than before, as I run that closed loop then it would be self compensating but I ran it straight off the map to see and was pleased to be able to repeat the results that I had when I put it into the Wagon.
As a last ... yes I know it’s hard to understand how it works and I was as sceptical as anyone, I do not endorse/recommend or criticise anything that I have not tried and tested. In this case I think it provides benefit and I have twice carried out similar tests on two different cars to achieve similar results.
Bob"
============

uxg

Some interesting reading with some good points made but I am not really after more horsepower (300bhp is enough at leastfor now) or mpg gains. All I am interested in is reducing the risk of det or knock without having to use addtional octane booster or mess around with reprogrammble ecu's and ignition timing or advance\retard correction.

All I want to do is drop a couple of these babies in, stop faffing around with octane booster and drive my car around safely on the standard ECU and map with 97 RON fuel. Can this be done?

David Lock

uxg. I am certain that Broquet will reduce the risk of detonation when you use a lower octane. However every engine is different and I don't want to come out and say figures in octane number terms. I drive a car (non-Scoob) which is set up for the old 98 RON fuel and 99% of the time it runs perfectly on 95 RON but every now and again I get some minor detonation which is probably down to different petrol or ambient weather conditions. It has run like this for 162,000 miles. Incidentally the exhaust emissions on this 1989 non-cat engine are so low it would pass the 'cat test exhaust test if it had to. I would say try Broquet and experiment with say Optimax and no additives and even try some 95 and I don't think you will be disappointed. If you are not going to use the extra power then you will be getting an mpg gain which will pay for the Broquet over a period of time. David

mutant_matt

Something like 100 people bought the Broquet about 18 months ago from Scoobyshop and not a single one has reported back.

I don't know what to read into that but there should in theory be a wealth of first hand opinion on the matter by now?

Anyone?

Matt

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Moderators putting up posts which are then deleted by webmaster????

Wots all that about?

chiark

Stevie,

This explains it

Cheers,

Nick.

Markus

I'm one of the people who purchased broquet from the ScoobyShop. Think I now get the idea why I got an email about this the other day from someone

I did notice a difference, think maybe 1 mpg better fuel economy after installing broquet. I've not kept my promise of posting up more results, simply as I'd had enough of the people going on and on and on and on about it being 'snake oil'.

I believe it does what it says on the tin, wanna call me a fool? go ahead, i don't mind.

One day, when my six numbers come up, I'll get some proper bench testing done on some engines and we'll hopefully get some results that will a) shut me up and prove I'm a fool, or b) make some of the disbelievers eat humble pie.