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Oil+filter was recently changed - allegedly (no proof)
Additionally, it was also changed by me about 11month and roughly 20,000 miles ago. This is proven. This engine has 18,000mile / 2 year change intervals, so the oil if it wasn't changed last month wouldn't be "that overdue". Not enough to cause the above IMO.
I personally have only see this on cars with oil contamination or that have gone for 50,000+ miles without a change. And even then its not as bad as this.
This is a 2013 PSA 1.3HDi/ Fiat 1.3 Multijet engine with 68000 miles. As you can see, it has problems. What I need to find out is how its ended up like this so quickly on a relatively newish vehicle that HAS been maintained.
Oil is Triple QX 5w-30 synthetic (customer supplied the oil), which whilst its not PSA/Fiat approved, it does meet BMW LL04 and Dexos2 which are both high standard high mile/long drain interval specs.
I have a few ideas of what's causing it, but thought I throw this out there to see. Fiat/PSA forums don't seem to throw up much info on these engines apart from some do fail catastrophically (I think we saved this one) and hydraulic lifter failure is also common (and yes this does have lifter problems...which isn't surprising considering the state of the filter.
That's pretty hideous after a recent change. Difficult to say what has caused it, but you can send us a sample of the oil (100ml or so) to Opie Oils, Cardrew Industrial Estate, Redruth, Cornwall, TR15 1SS, marked for my attention, with a note explaining what you've put in the post (as I may lose track of this thread by then). I'll get it tested and see what it throws up.
PSA approved oils for DPFs are C2, the BMW and GM approvals that you mention are C3, but that should only really affect the DPF rather than the oil system like that.
Possibly injector seals if so check the oil pump lift gauze.
I have admit I'm not totally familiar with the later type of Fiat's SDE engines in this respect. This one is a FHZ engine which cross refs to the fiat 199a9.000
I know the Ford/pug DV4 and DV6 units suffer from this problem, compounded by the inlet manifold being part of the cam cover. But the Fiat engine is not like this.
Strainer will need cleaning as the filler and dipstick tubes were both sludged up too so this will be clogged to. The oil starvation was so bad the hydraulic lifters would collapse when hot meaning the valves wouldn't open enough to allow the engine to start - it would just turn over like it's got low compression.
It is running now, no bad noises, no smoke, and good performance. DPF loading is low. Makes it bit hard to explain to the driver that it's actually dead on its feet. I'm amazed the turbo hasn't totally failed (yet).
When cold it does run a little lumpy though with a little white smoke if left idling (Unburnt diesel burning off in the exhaust). I suspect a injector may have a iffy spray pattern/atomisation, but this wouldn't cause this level of oil contamination IMO.
I think the engine is beyond repair without a full strip down. But obviously if I go down the rebuild path as opposed to replacement, I will need to ensure it won't happen again. That's why I need to find the cause of the oil contamination.
That's pretty hideous after a recent change. Difficult to say what has caused it, but you can send us a sample of the oil (100ml or so) to Opie Oils, Cardrew Industrial Estate, Redruth, Cornwall, TR15 1SS, marked for my attention, with a note explaining what you've put in the post (as I may lose track of this thread by then). I'll get it tested and see what it throws up.
PSA approved oils for DPFs are C2, the BMW and GM approvals that you mention are C3, but that should only really affect the DPF rather than the oil system like that.
Cheers
Tim
Thanks Tim
That's a helpful offer, I'll see if the lad hasn't chucked the old oil tomorrow (I did collect it as I wanted to measure and inspect what drained out).
I'm pretty sure its soot contamination. On the basis I can't think of anything else that could cause the oil to thicken out like that to that extent so quickly (except for coolant contamination...but there is no coolant loss). How so much soot got in there though remains the mystery.
If it were past the pistons, I'd expect to see compression related misfires and oil burning/crankcase pressurisation. I have also seen on a different engine a turbo seal failure on the exhaust side causing exhaust gas to go through the oil return, but again that caused crankcase pressurisation and simply stopped the engine running from lack of air as the exhaust gas was being pumped out the oil breather back into the inlet. Although these were total failures, so maybe I'm seeing a slight failure - difficult to say without stripping it down.
DPF is quite happy: live data shows low back pressure in the exhaust. No fault codes stored. And no performance issues when driving. Being an Eu5 engine it will have position sensing on the EGR, and EGR gas flow will be monitored and verified via feed back from the MAF sensor (open EGR=less airflow through MAF), normally if any of this is out of kilter it will throw a code and check engine light....it certainly did on the older JTD units.
I was wondering about biodiesel as we do hear about issues with it from time to time. As far as I'm aware, all diesel sold in the UK has to be at least 5% bio and quite often it will be a fair bit higher than that. We sell diesel and ours has the minimum bio content as we sell it to fishing boats and the last thing you want is a bacterial/fungal build up in the tank a couple of hundred miles offshore. I guess the testing will show it up if there is an issue.
So, thought I'd dig this thread up whilst I'm chilling. Not surprisingly the above engine died and was replaced (timing chain failed), in fairness it lasted another few thousand miles though, I wasn't expecting it to last another hundred LOL.
However we since had these engines flooding in with the same issues, having to replace eight of these, some seized, some jumped chains, some partially seized (fine cold, but wouldn't turn over when hot). All had the above sludge issue. First hint of a issue without dropping the oil is a chain rattle.
Meanwhile the first engine that failed pops back in for its first service on its new engine...only to find the same has happened...filter full of sludge!
Long story short; The turbo leaks exhaust gas into the oil return. This goes unnoticed as there is little oil consumption and the turbo otherwise performs flawlessly, no smoke, showing little bearing play and no blade wear/damage. But despite this its allowing soot into the oil.
We've since spotted and 'saved' alot more Pug/Citroen 1.3Hdi and Fiat 1.3 multijet engines from total failure by spotting this issue early on during a oil change.
Strange thing is the earlier EU4/3 versions of this engine gave no problems despite using the same tiny Garret GT turbo. What's different? Exhaust temperatures! Basically the ones that suffered worse are delivery vans doing local drops and shutting down the engine repeatedly part way through DPF regeneration. The turbo sits right above the catalyst, so is exposed to excessive heat thermally convecting back up the into the turbine from the red-hot cat. Hot exhaust+no gas flow+no oil flow to cool it = cooked exhaust/turbine shaft seal.
Really daft and simple failure really and something Scooby owners have been warned about when shutting down an engine at motorway services etc. Usually the traditional turbo would let the driver know it's had enough by either making unhealthy noises or filling rear view mirror with smoke.
Not on these engines through, and the result of this will knacker the engine without giving the owner/driver any warning of impeding doom bar a sludgy dipstick and maybe a chain rattle, even by then the engine damage is well on its way.
As these are lease/fleet vans we were a little tied on what we can/can't do...in one case we wanted to drop the sump for inspection of the strainer and big ends etc. Instead we were instructed to use oil flush and run it for 15mins...it seized! So that's another lesson learnt on using flush on a engine with sludge issues....DON'T!
Also whilst all these engines clearly had low oil pressure...the oil pressure light remained off, bar the very rare momentary flicker. On Fiats the same light also flashes when a oil change is due, which confuses matters
Just for reference.....
I work for Citroen...the Citroen powered one is a DV4....(1400cc)...never seen a dv4 fail....as for the other engine,another garage in our group has changed a few in the past....
22 March 2016, 02:50 PM
Oil expert(s) required. Not a Subaru.
