scoobyluke23

what benifits did people find when they fitted a anti lift kit to there newage scooby?

Stevesbluewrx

iTrader: (4)

Depending on set up dude.

I have AST coilovers,upper front brace,Front and Reat ARB with drop links etc and then ALK.

The car feels like it's on rails now. And the ALK will do as is says on the tin. I've noticed very little lift but then thats it part of the other mods mate.

Steve

MrNoisy

iTrader: (28)

Do you have many original suspension parts left (if any) Steve?

dunx

iTrader: (3)

Hi Luke, mine's standard STI suspension, but Whiteline ARB's and links. Fitting the ALK definitely keeps the nose down, and is most noticeable when straightlining heavily camber roundabouts ( late at night on the run home from work, obviously ! ). The front end feels glued now whereas before it scrabbled for grip and felt very understeery.

HTH

DunxC

GlesgaKiss

Hmm, this is something I might need to look into!

dunx

iTrader: (3)

I added mine together with a front ARB so can't tell you which is making the greatest change, but suspect the ALK is the greater, the ARB just holds the car flatter through normal cornering ( yeah right )

HTH

DunxC

Bez300

iTrader: (2)

I had ALK fitted at same time as stiffer lower springs

loads better

It Does what it says on the tin

Bez

scoobyluke23

ok thankyou ill look into buying the ALK cheers everyone for the comments and advice

The rookie

iTrader: (1)

Oh dear here we go again...

The Whiteline 'ALK' actually increases pro-lift at the front, so the front WILL lift more!
The lower rear mounting on the wishbone means its inclined upwrads so the as forward traction is applied the outer balljoint is forced down, forcing the tyre into the road for more grip but increasing lift.

The ALK also moves the rear wishbone mounting out thus increasing castor, this gives more effective negative camber during cornering.

Simon

dunx

iTrader: (3)

What ? Mine is noticeably flatter off the line, and apart from "engineering speak" complicating things it has reduced the movement of the body from a standstill under full power launching ( 400 bhp ! ).

imho

DunxC

the bear1986

iTrader: (8)

so what are you saying alk arn't any good then or what?

Bez300

iTrader: (2)

ALK is a good mod

rickya

iTrader: (18)

Lifted from another post:
https://www.scoobynet.com/suspension...-lift-kit.html


ANDY F- SUBARU TUNERS
"The main benefit is from the stiffer bush reducing castor change under braking/power. There is also a slight increase in castor due to the strut bottom being pushed forward slightly. This can improve 'feel' with the standard over assisted steering.

Contrary to popular belief the 'anti lift kit' does not actually reduce lift !!! In fact if you work out the geometry (and I have) it actually increases the lift/dive moment arm (CG height/Instantaneous pitch centre) under acceleration or braking conditions."

"It seems to me that by lowering the rear mount you will increase dive & squat (in theory), and will have virtually no effect on castor for the small amount of lowering involved. Has anyone measured a castor change?

I'd suggest that the active ingredient in the ALK is the stiffer bush and that the small change in geometry is insignificant and further-more if you want to reduce dive/lift then the rear mount should be raised (not lowered) relative to front mount."

"I think I can see where you got that from, if you look solely at braking then if you kept increasing anti-dive you would eventually get pro-lift ie hit the brake and the nose of the car would lift. When you reverse the longditudinal force (acceleration) you also reverse the vertical component and anti-dive forces become anti-lift forces.....it follows that any reduction in anti-dive = a reduction in anti-lift.

As a practical experiment (not suggesting this for you Jim) try pulling on the handbrake on a Peugeot 206 (or probably any modern small FWD car) whilst going forward (slowly )....result - **** dips sharply (dive / squat)
Reverse the force by doing it with the car rolling backwards and **** leaps up (lift)

WHITELINE AUTOMOTIVE
"I have to admit that the basic conclusion is a little embarrassing when compared with the existing text of the product description. Specifically, our testing data found that the fitment of the ALK increases from lift under power while reducing understeer and delivering the positives described by customers and quantified thru extensive track testing. How to answer this apparent contradiction?

The basic design for the ALK was done over 5 years ago with the help of a consultant. During the initial research stage we referred to the concept as an “anti-lift kit” meaning that it dealt with the geometry of “anti-lift”. The concept delivered the dynamic results we wanted with reduced lap times and understeer however the name stuck through. A great deal of time and further research has since been invested yet the description has remained unchanged. Our apologies for any confusion we have caused in the meantime but we very much appreciate the opportunity to revisit the issue and learn from this debate. Here are the key excerpts from the report we prepared;
------------------------------------------------------
Effect of Whiteline Automotive ALK

The ALK effectively modifies the position of the side view instant center on the front suspension. The side view instant center is the pivot point for the side view swing arm (also the pivot point for the suspension at that instant), which is a line drawn from the tire contact patch to the side view instant center. The slope or angle of this swing arm (effectively the position of the instant center) describes the amount of anti-dive and anti-lift present in the front suspension.

The instant center is found by the intersection of the two lines. The first is the projection of the lower control arm, say through the chassis mounts, behind the front wheel the second is the normal to the axis joining the tire contact patch to the top of the strut tower, from the top of the strut tower.
(Note: To be absolutely correct these lines should be projected onto the wheel center plane, so any lateral angles in the lower control arm will effect the instant center position. However the lower control arm in the WRX is relatively flat which will give minimal effect)

Together with the position of the instant center, the WRX’s wheelbase, CG height above the ground, % front torque (for anti-lift) and % front braking (for anti-dive) are required to calculate the anti features of the front suspension.

With the ALK fitted, the rear mount of the front lower control arm is lower by about 20mm. There is also a castor change by moving the mount outwards (however this has not been taken into account). This has the effect of lowering the instant center and decreasing the angle or slope of the swing arm resulting in the following anti-dive and anti-lift coefficients, expressed as percentages.

As can be seen in the above calculation spreadsheet (can supply separately as can not embed into message), with the ALK fitted the anti-lift and anti-dive coefficients reduce to 0%.

The effect of lowering the % anti-lift / anti-dive

If the suspension has 100% anti-dive / anti-lift, then all the longitudinal load transfer experienced when braking and accelerating is carried through the control arm, leaving the springs unloaded and no deflection present. If there is 0% then the springs take the entire load, giving full spring deflection.

By lowering the % the front suspension becomes “softer” under acceleration or braking. This gives rise to the higher diving and lifting that has been experimentally shown. (These results are also in a table

A softer front suspension during acceleration and braking will even out the load on the front tires, giving a higher total cornering load available or more front grip. This will lead to less understeer when cornering under power or brakes.

Softer front rate will also allow better wheel tracking over rough roads, keeping the wheels in contact with the ground. In simple terms, fitment of the ALK has the effect of delivering a softer effective spring rate during the pitch moment.

------------------------------------------

From this you can see that the product name is misleading and inappropriate. This will be changed and qualified even though it deals with the geometric concept of “anti-lift”. However we can happily report that the improvements claimed for the product are still valid and quantifiable.

I look forward to continuing this discussion once everyone has had a chance to digest the above.

Best regards
Jim Gurieff

Whiteline Automotive

911- SUSPENSION GURU!
"Don't bother with them, fit Noltec top mounts and get rid of understeer.
Graham

So Noltec allows you to adjust the castor? Is that correct?
On the fronts yes david

"Hi,

If you don't want to get rid if the 'anti' geometry, Whiteline also manufacture a castor (KCA375) bush that leaves the pick-up point at the original height.
This will give about 0.5 degree of static castor and more importantly, reduce the castor loss under cornering load.

The main reason for wanting increased castor for me is not the increased negative camber on the outside front wheel but the increased load on the inside front wheel during cornering. The reduced 'anti' geometry helps this effect of castor to 'push the inside front wheel down' to increase front end grip and traction.

The rookie

iTrader: (1)

There is also a tech paper on the whiteline website that tells you its pro-lift.

It works by two effects...
1/ Incraesed castor (therfore effective camber) although this removes some (more) steering feel.
2/ Pro-lift means that in a corner the front lifts, this effectively softens the front springs, and we all know that softer front springs reduce understeer, hence the improvement.

But reducing front end lift, no not at all, but as a placebo to make you think it has its seems to work very well!

Simon

escott

iTrader: (1)

On the original question - I'll hopefully be able to tell you next week!

dunx

iTrader: (3)

Sorry but mine used to heave around like a supertanker in a storm, ( full throttle used to attract passing airscraft ! ) before fitting the ALK & Front ARB, now it just goes, maybe my arms are bent far enough to negate the benefits

DunxC

silent running

All I know is it works bloody great. My Scoob corners like its on rails.

Meallbhan

iTrader: (3)

I'm getting mine fitted on Tuesday along with a geo set up. Can't wait for the drive home.

bigarf

iTrader: (67)

think i will have to be trying this one next,ive already got the tein coilovers,whiteline front+rear arbs + drop links so might as well add this to my list aswell.

fmp

iTrader: (7)

what ALK do people rate?

and is it something you can fit yourself? or does it need full geometry setup at the same time/soon after?

rickya

iTrader: (18)

Whiteline & need geometry done after.

Meallbhan

iTrader: (3)

Got mine fitted last week and a full geometry set up. I havent been able to fully feel what its like cos the roads are always wet but from what I can tell it feels good and seems to love the initial tuck in to a corner. After that the more power I give it, the more power it seems to want. Happy days!

cusco kid

who gives a fooooooooooooooooooooooook about the tecnical jargon lets not split hairs , dont analyse it,the anti lift kit works and works well.
when we first went on knockhill we could not get the scoobie to go round the hairpin,MASSIF UNDEERSTEER ,,,alk fitted .now no problem geo

escott

iTrader: (1)

I've just had the whiteline fitted, and the difference is noticeable. Firstly, the steering 'firms up a bit' - it takes more effort to move it from the centre. You also lose a bit of steering feel, which I believe is common when adding extra castor.

It has also mainly addressed my main reason for fitting it, which was a bit of a lack of front end grip when braking into corners, this seems better now (although not entirely cured).

I've also had a rear ARB fitted, the combination of the 2 has made a big difference - car corners flatter and I just feel more confident with it in general.

Remap tomorrow - yaaay!

John Stevenson

No offence George, but you'd be a mindless T!t to bolt on something that someone said was good, when they can't explain what it does.

I have this on my car. But for my own reasons.

cusco kid

and how many people have you heard that dont like the alk after its been fitted .i have fitted many, for guys and never had any complaints bud. geo

John Stevenson

Agreed but Lots of people buy 'Snake Oil' and suffer from the Placibo effect.

STiFreak

iTrader: (4)

Few things to note here, which make ALK's effectiveness difficult to quantify (spelling?):
Most people fit other suspension enhancements at the same time (ARB's, coilovers, etc).
Most people will have a full alignment done after fitting (which will have a positive effect on it's own if done properly).

I am not saying that it does not have a positive effect (it seems to improve front end grip into a corner and sharpen turn in), but that is just my opinion and is not really measurable.

The rookie

iTrader: (1)

With all due respect, there is no way just the ALK made that much difference, and if it did it would be incredable unsafe to sell for road use!

I have never denied it is a benefit, I just PML whenever someone tells you how the front end lift was 'definately reduced'!

Simon

silent running

This is bizarre. For several years now, neither Whiteline nor anyone has ever claimed that the ALK reduces lift. It alters the standard anti-lift properties with the very noticeable effect of getting rid of understeer. And yes I did it independently of other mods. It works, simple as that.