ClintUK

I was always taught that braking and down shifting should always be done before turn in, even throttle to the apex then power on as you take steering lock off was the way to do it.

But times have moved on from my Dads era and commentary on F1 often has the phrase 'braking deeper' and I assumed this was braking during turn in.

At a track day at Rockingham my instructor was telling me to keep the brakes on for turn in. As braking throws more weight over front tyres I can see how this can increase grip for the turn in.

However on another track day at Brands - (different instructor of course), we were back to the old everything in a straight line routine.


Is this simply the novice / starter method, versus a more skilled technique? Is it more suited to 4WD than FWD / RWD.

Anyone any comments?
Cheers

NISFAN

Different cars and even different conditions require different driving techniques. Similarly, different instructors have different styles too. They often contradict what others say.
Just find a technique that you feel most comfortable with, and suits your car best.

saiklon

I think braking into the corner takes more skill since you have to let off the brake gradually as you get into the corner. And of course the natural impulse is to enter the corner too fast and then stomp on the brakes at corner entry which will most likely have you spinning out.

dunx

iTrader: (3)

Also depends on the systems on the car, mine is superbly stable on the brakes, (with EBD), but then slides nicely on turn-in due to a nice Whiteline rear anti-roll bar with "drift-spec" rear geometry.

Dunx

Milamber

iTrader: (2)

Look up "Trail braking" ether on here or google. Braking into a corner will help you turn in quicker and kill any oversteer you may get. This is a brief description of course, in real life it is much more complicated and involves you using the left foot. Not something to test on your tip to the shops.

Go to Car Limits and click on the link to the short video clip on the right hand side (under the DVD) You will see him throwing an Elise into a corner and the front offside wheel locks up.......... because he's braking through the corner.

The best money you'd ever spend would be booking a days training with him.

ClintUK

Thanks saiklon & Milamber, you've confirmed what I thought. I know I would appreciate & really benefit from a days trainning, unfortunately I'll have to save up for that.

I wont be practising on the way to or from the shops - the beer gets too fizzy if you do that

GaryCat

The car limits DVD explains the friction circle well and you should familiarise yourself with it.

Here's an introduction - Prohibition Times: Wreckless Driving: Friction Circle

It's ALL about the balance of the car. When you brake before the corner, the weight moves forward over the front wheels, then when you turn in (e.g. for a righthander) the weight goes to the left hand side of the car. If you do all your braking before you get to the corner, then get off the brakes before turning, the weight goes back to the middle of the car away from the front wheels which need the grip to turn.

The optimum way is to ease off the brakes as you turn so the weight moves round the side of the car and not back to the centre. To do this in practice, imagine a piece of string connecting your steering wheel and brake pedal so as you turn the wheel the string pulls your brake pedal up.

Then as you clip the apex (hopefully!) the string is on the throttle, so as you unwind the steering, the throttle can be pressed.

Milamber

iTrader: (2)

EXACTLY

As I say, before you consider any mods you should consider a training course. It'll show you how to make your existing car go faster for free.

51st state

and i'll have a go for free in your car aswell

thought the idea of braking into the apex was for car that understeer and won't turn in, braking into the corner loads up the front outside wheel getting it to dig in and grip, then feed on the power

it all depends on the type of car and its handling

alternatively just drive it like you stole it and in somebody elses car for free, this always inspires confidence

HowieG

My track experience with a standardish WRX bug is that if you are on the brakes to far into the corner you get loads of front bite but a light rear, which then swings round. Great fun of course, where there is space but not the fastest way. Generally I find that getting off the brakes just before and letting the car settle, and driving through with a little gas is the best.

Modified cars may be different.

Howard

GaryCat

When you turn in on the brakes, the outside tyre is doing two jobs, braking and steering (lets say 50% of the grip for each job). Then, when you release the brake the wheel is only doing the steering so you suddenly have 100% of grip for turning the car which can throw the rear out.

So, you need to anticipate the extra turning grip when you come off the brakes, if you have braked deep into a corner.

vindaloo

Knowing both techniques and being able to decide which one to use is useful IMO.

What to do in particular circumstances.... I'd say it depends on the car and the corner in question. Whatever you do, try to keep it smooth. Allow the car to develop it's attitude without adding to it.

J.

saiklon

Tried it today on a u-turn (one of those where there's an opening in the concrete islands in the middle of the road).

Usually if I take this turn with any amount of speed, the result is truly embarassing understeer with the front wheels literally hopping along the road.

With the brake applied, the car turned in so well, about as well as my old MR2 and I was able to apply proper power at the corner exit.

MartinW

trail braking just lets you manage the front to rear grip of the car ie trade off rear grip for front. Obviously you need to be careful with this since you then unload the rear, and a slide or spin can result.

Trail braking isn't limited to left-foot braking, can be done perfectly fine as with normal right foot - do your braking in a straight line, then ease off the brakes gently as you turn in and apex.
Ideally you want to time this so that you're completely off the brakes ie as full grip returns to the rear, by the time you've got the line/ road space/ visibility to boot it.

Does depend on the car, most of my trail braking antics have been in my race caterham, which is tricky to time right since the back goes light so easily.
Some cars like to be very stable through a corner and need setting up into the right balance at turn-in, also mid engined and light cars with high grip (high cornering speed) can spin easily.

Have a practice at turning in as you come off the brakes and see what difference it makes - then practice getting the throttle fed in at just the right moment, as the weight comes back to the rear. It's nice when you get it right....!

Will Hendrix

It really depends on the car, an excessively understeery car might need to be trail braked all the time. However, for most cars, it depends on the corner. A corner that tends to lead to understeer (often uphill, decreasing radius) would most likely require at least a little trail braking, for example. Others might not at all.

bren@apex

iTrader: (20)

Different instructors will give you credit for different levels of skill. The safest technique is to brake in a straight line and is what is usually preached by instructors at track days as they assume you dont know what youre doing until you prove otherwise.

I trail brake all the time, the extent of which was illustrated to me at Donnington last week where I was on track for the first time in our Legacy automatic. If I manually shifted down a gear and trail braked into a corner then I found that the car would not drop a gear until the speed was low enough and because I was trail braking this point was more often than not mid corner. This would cause the car to become unsettled.

I had to modify my driving style and brake in a straight line to get the speed right down to the earlier mid corner speed, get the car to drop a gear and then turn in. A technique resulting in slower corner entry speed and less front end grip.